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Post by coolguyclay on Sept 30, 2019 14:16:35 GMT
What would "balance" look like in MK3 going forward? Could it ever happen? Over the years and editions, some models move from not-playable to good. Some go from decent to never-used. CID mixed things up, and was that system rigged by rascals who aimed to boost only their own stuff? Should updates to cards give bonuses that make it better and more capable on it's own? Or should updates just bring down the broken bits? Is it balance in a faction that many choices are viable? Or is it balance that some units are good at some things, and some good at others - make a choice! Is the the game balanced now? Trending towards balance, or away? (Just a fun discussion, see how long before it goes off the rails
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zhoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 254
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Post by zhoe on Sept 30, 2019 14:31:28 GMT
dey got tid of hils cuz u couldnt bslance models on dem if dey was 3d so it fixed now
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Post by copperflame on Sept 30, 2019 15:30:50 GMT
2 minutes is pretty good... is that a record?
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Sept 30, 2019 19:39:11 GMT
I think either or would work. The most important part of balance is relative strength.
It's a different genre altogether, but if you compare modern YGO to old school, everything is a lot faster, more fluid, and also more conplicated now. It's the same balancing act, the pace is just different.
In other words - would you prefer if everyone had a 16" threat range and could trivially one round colossals, or would you rather have them capping at 11", with more prolonged battles of attrition rather than instant beatdowns?
Oversimplified, obviously, point costs, power, aim, defenses, synergy, threat range and scenario layout are all part of the puzzle, but I'm trying to keep it simple for the sake of clarity.
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Post by coolguyclay on Oct 1, 2019 17:01:04 GMT
dey got tid of hils cuz u couldnt bslance models on dem if dey was 3d so it fixed now Very clever Not all of zhoe's cogs are loose!
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Oct 2, 2019 14:34:49 GMT
I would say that balance is always relative so there will be no absolute balance (expecially if many casters have a very overpowered feel to them and there is combos of spells and units). Balance aspects are: Faction internal balance: Are all options viable? To what degree? Are there clear winners and losers? Faction vs Faction balance: Are factions dominating? Are factions weaker than others? Do factions have significantly less options than others? Meta balance: What is being played, how well can your faction respond? How does this meta skew the list, can lists adapt? How much does the meta warp list building?
Of course you can never really achieve this perfectly. What you need for internal balance is some niches for Casters and Units to differentiate them. This somehwat achived by themes. On the highest level, probably still only the most important choices are relevant - but if that gives a playable game this is okay. Not nice for the stuff on the shelf but one unit too weak is better than one too strong. In Warmachine most things are pretty viable. Sometimes something can also fill a niche because your oponent is not used to it, or be weak just because they know how to handle it. In the faction vs. faction balance it gets more complicated because you have differend matchups advantages to a faction and disadvantages. Hopefully the faction identity does not give them too much of an edge against certain factions or too much of a disadvantage. Problematic are choices that outcompete everything in faction and easily win against a lot of factions. Those need to be toned down for the game to stay interesting. Also it is ususally not desirable to have things that are too easy to pilot or that do not allow your oponent to interact with you. Haley 2 in Mk2 combined these aspects very well I think (except for ease of piloting if your oppent could reach scenario).
For the general game balance: I think it is pretty good. PP nerfed a lot of these "offenders" throughout mkIII. There is still stuff that feels overpowered, some Battle engines that become too good not to use or some Clockatrices and even Tharn. There is still stuff that is underwhelming. Most of these things are only "one thing" away from being okay usually or being back in line. Warmachine will always be a "hard" game, so you will always feel some struggle against what your oponent brings. But I think PP is doing a good job so far and as long as they keep pushing things back in line, the game will remain interesting but sufficently balanced (I hope). As long as you feel you have options, can be creative and are not utterly dominated be specific things, balance is good (enough).
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Post by charlzheimer on Oct 7, 2019 8:59:11 GMT
you will always have options that are FLAT out better in your own faction then others. you will always have options in other factions that you WISH you had in your own faction but don't specifically for the reason of balance.
you want to AVOID mandatory auto includes (I.E. trident) i don't think the RET trident is balanced, because of how it has become a auto include in every Firetrucking RET list so far. (i feel the same about paladin units beeing free btw)
but to fight against or with they are pretty solid imho.
PP has a good game there are a few offenders but adressing those aren't always that easy.
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