bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Sept 11, 2019 18:27:06 GMT
+1 to what shmeep said.
Just wanted to chime in with some more examples: Every faction has access to arc nodes: Dreamer creates an arc node with the Phantasm. But Cryx has cheap ones, Convergence also. Infernals too. It's Trollbloods time to get one for sure.
Grievous are plenty of places ime: Besides the allready mentioned, Garry2 is popular and can easily apply Mortality. All Cryx is playing atm is Stalker spam = GW. CG often brings anti healing, Blightbringer and Golab (from THE legion lists atm) has anti tough/healing. LOTF. Void Archon. New UA for Neigh Slayers can give grievous, J.A.I.M.s has it and of course the new bread and butter unit for Infernals, Howlers, has grievous wounds. It's getting handed out like candy imo! I'm strongly in the "Grieveous is everywhere" camp.
So no, it's not included in the majority of each faction, but so many people bring it because of the current meta requirements to be able to compete.
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Sept 11, 2019 19:11:17 GMT
I never said cheap arc node........
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Sept 11, 2019 19:56:55 GMT
I never said cheap arc node........ I agree, I don't think they'd be appropriate for trolls. If you compare arc nodes- spell martyrs are IMO a good example of cheap arc nodes. Exalted not so much, since you're getting a quick arc node with telemetry(!) for only 3 points. sure, Cryx' chickens can sort of fight, but let's be honest, I'm sure they'd rather shave off the extra points to get twice as many of them. The extoller just breaks that design space. CoC have the Optifex for a cheap channeler, but CoC are more designed around it AFAIK, and the Optifex doesn't bring a great gun, Telemetry, and solid defensive stats to the table. Troll mini-shamans that can be channeled through would kinda make sense thematically, but I hope PP won't keep moving away from arc nodes actually presenting an opportunity cost. When you actually need to move a light beast/jack forward to channel you have to think twice before going for it, and with martyrs every spell you cast costs you a point of your army.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Sept 11, 2019 20:29:18 GMT
+1 to what shmeep said. Just wanted to chime in with some more examples: Every faction has access to arc nodes: Dreamer creates an arc node with the Phantasm. But Cryx has cheap ones, Convergence also. Infernals too. It's Trollbloods time to get one for sure. Grievous are plenty of places ime: Besides the allready mentioned, Garry2 is popular and can easily apply Mortality. All Cryx is playing atm is Stalker spam = GW. CG often brings anti healing, Blightbringer and Golab (from THE legion lists atm) has anti tough/healing. LOTF. Void Archon. New UA for Neigh Slayers can give grievous, J.A.I.M.s has it and of course the new bread and butter unit for Infernals, Howlers, has grievous wounds. It's getting handed out like candy imo! I'm strongly in the "Grieveous is everywhere" camp. So no, it's not included in the majority of each faction, but so many people bring it because of the current meta requirements to be able to compete. +1 Especially since i wasnt just talking about GW, anti-heal too and that inludes things with mortality and stuff. I also have to revise my statement for michael's sake: Most popular lists in popular factions pack GW or anti-heal. I fact I'd ascertain that most casters or themes are popular BECAUSE they pack GW or anti heal, see Garryth2 or WoW. Also to add to the ARC node list; Fiona has dark rituals and is shaping up to be the best casters in mercs and one of the stronges casters in the game. Khador also has access to the hurricane in one theme. Not that it changes much.
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Post by michael on Sept 11, 2019 23:06:34 GMT
I accounted for the Khadoran access to Cygnaran arc nodes in that Oblivion theme force. Regardless, I argue that a faction that has 95% absolutely zero access to arc nodes (or insert other relevant ability here) effectively has no arc nodes. There are always exceptions, and pointing to a minor counterexample does not invalidate the original claim. I thought I hedged sufficiently in my original post, but apparently I did not. Also, somebody is quite wrong, either me or the other guy, because Dreamer’s Phantasms do not in any way allow her to channel through them. So unless my War Room is totally f’d up the a, something is wrong here. And anyway: if you want to make the claim that “popular lists bring Grievous and/or anti-Tough abilities”, that’s fine. Say that. Don’t say ( paraphrasing and exaggerating for humor) “everybody has arc nodes all the time, except Trolls, oh woe is us!” when that’s hardly true.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Sept 12, 2019 0:03:35 GMT
I accounted for the Khadoran access to Cygnaran arc nodes in that Oblivion theme force. Regardless, I argue that a faction that has 95% absolutely zero access to arc nodes (or insert other relevant ability here) effectively has no arc nodes. There are always exceptions, and pointing to a minor counterexample does not invalidate the original claim. I thought I hedged sufficiently in my original post, but apparently I did not. Also, somebody is quite wrong, either me or the other guy, because Dreamer’s Phantasms do not in any way allow her to channel through them. So unless my War Room is totally f’d up the a, something is wrong here. And anyway: if you want to make the claim that “popular lists bring Grievous and/or anti-Tough abilities”, that’s fine. Say that. Don’t say ( paraphrasing and exaggerating for humor) “everybody has arc nodes all the time, except Trolls, oh woe is us!” when that’s hardly true. Dreamer's medium phantasm is a channeler according to Warma-Uni. My money's on WarRoom Firetrucking up again.
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Post by Korianneder on Sept 12, 2019 1:51:13 GMT
I accounted for the Khadoran access to Cygnaran arc nodes in that Oblivion theme force. Regardless, I argue that a faction that has 95% absolutely zero access to arc nodes (or insert other relevant ability here) effectively has no arc nodes. There are always exceptions, and pointing to a minor counterexample does not invalidate the original claim. I thought I hedged sufficiently in my original post, but apparently I did not. Also, somebody is quite wrong, either me or the other guy, because Dreamer’s Phantasms do not in any way allow her to channel through them. So unless my War Room is totally f’d up the a, something is wrong here. And anyway: if you want to make the claim that “popular lists bring Grievous and/or anti-Tough abilities”, that’s fine. Say that. Don’t say ( paraphrasing and exaggerating for humor) “everybody has arc nodes all the time, except Trolls, oh woe is us!” when that’s hardly true. Dreamer's medium phantasm is a channeler according to Warma-Uni. My money's on WarRoom Firetrucking up again. Its also a channeler according to my warroom.
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jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274
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Post by jarrow on Sept 12, 2019 5:12:18 GMT
It is true that Trolls get side-slap because Tharns are so good. Good players have to take lists that have anti-healing so they can kill tharns and same tools work to trolls as well. What most troll players do is whine about how everyone have tools to their army and change faction. What they should do is change they army lists and play something different. Borka1 with arcane ward? Beasts? Battle engines? There is a lot more options than champions. Biggest problem of trolls (and what I have read, also other communities as well) is that players get stuck to place and don't evolve with meta.
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Post by moridamn on Sept 12, 2019 11:13:14 GMT
Biggest problem of trolls (and what I have read, also other communities as well) is that players get stuck to place and don't evolve with meta. There is some truth to this. I rarely see other troll players in my local meta taking lists outside SotN double bears or champions. They complain it doesn't work, but they wont change their army significantly. They just bash their head against the wall using the same strategy while expecting a different result.
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Sept 12, 2019 11:26:56 GMT
Possibly. But anyone who attempts the conversation of innovating gets slapped down pretty quick as well. We're, ok-ish here about it, but most conversation doesn't happen here. It happens on facebook, and reddit, and places like that. I certainly don't bring up my lists anymore, even though I feel I am doing quite well with them. i got tired of "X sucks and you have to play Kolgrimma to even try (or whatever)". i don't even own Kolgrimma due to the community pushing her so hard, but I digress. All of my list building ideas bounce off of individuals I have built a rapport with these days, I rarely reach out to the Trollblood players as a whole.
If you want to foster diversity and innovation, be nice. Work with the person to find and build the strengths in a list rather than bash its weakness.
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Post by dickovdk on Sept 12, 2019 12:14:34 GMT
I am 100% agreeing we as a faction fanatics need to be more open-minded to the builds. Trying out stuff in the local meta can however be really sad times when everything you ever meet is that "OP"circle list or that Skorne Immortal list.
I have in the years I have been playing trolls more looked at the as what answers can I cover rather than what questions do I ask. And right now I simply cannot answer enough to be honest. It might be my shortcomings but that's the truth nonetheless.
Faye and I talked a lot last year about the Calandra Double Wagon list and I threw it down a few times against similar level people and coming out on top every single time. But I never felt it could stand its own against the top dogs. Again it might be a mental issue from my point of view but having been playing an uphill battle for what three years since Mk3 came out (except briefly when northkin cid came out) have really drained all kind of creativity.
Back to the question what do we need, I feel its true we need something done to some of our models, light beasts i am looking at you guys, but also true we as fraction freaks need to step up and be creative together.
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Post by michael on Sept 12, 2019 14:11:11 GMT
Update on the medium Phantasm channeler:
I just flipped back and forth between the cards repeatedly and it eventually popped up. Odd!
I haven’t seen the Dreamer played...ever, though, maybe, so hey.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Sept 12, 2019 19:37:23 GMT
I am 100% agreeing we as a faction fanatics need to be more open-minded to the builds. Trying out stuff in the local meta can however be really sad times when everything you ever meet is that "OP"circle list or that Skorne Immortal list. I have in the years I have been playing trolls more looked at the as what answers can I cover rather than what questions do I ask. And right now I simply cannot answer enough to be honest. It might be my shortcomings but that's the truth nonetheless. Faye and I talked a lot last year about the Calandra Double Wagon list and I threw it down a few times against similar level people and coming out on top every single time. But I never felt it could stand its own against the top dogs. Again it might be a mental issue from my point of view but having been playing an uphill battle for what three years since Mk3 came out (except briefly when northkin cid came out) have really drained all kind of creativity. Back to the question what do we need, I feel its true we need something done to some of our models, light beasts i am looking at you guys, but also true we as fraction freaks need to step up and be creative together. It frustrates me that it seems like battle engines are just head and shoulders above every other model type (dawnsled, railless, anamintarax+SG, WW), and so the only troll lists that have any pull feature either one or both war wagons. Hell, you guys instinctively reached for the War Wagon as an "alternative" right off the bat. I'm far from an expert, but from what I've hard the most successful TB list in recent time was Iwaasa's double WW+Sea King+HHH list, and that's getting all of its strength from big, expensive models. It feels like I'm playing a GW game. I don't like it.
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Sept 12, 2019 19:48:19 GMT
Again I agree with you. Welcome to pay-to-win BAHI-machine..
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jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274
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Post by jarrow on Sept 13, 2019 4:51:58 GMT
Battle engines are definitely good peaces as they work 100% for last HP. They are like beasts, that don't need fury. And they are also good against clockatrice as they are not living. I can't argue shmeep if he don't like big models, but I like them. First was the Grim1+4 huge list Iwaasa copied from me and now I'm playing Borka2 double HHH. I really hope that Dhunia archon free a bit our beast play with shepherd's call and we see more heavy beasts. Personally I'm waiting the model so I can start testing Grissel2 MK+double Dhunia list.
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