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Post by sand20go on Sept 9, 2019 23:55:08 GMT
Not interested in Salt bath but obviously WTC (and results at DGI) suggest the faction is in a challenged place. I bought some models way back when for my son. COnsidering getting them on the painting table so as to take a break from painting khador and wondered why are things so bad with them? State of infantry? Support bloat? Not enough staying power into the high powered shooting that is dominating the game?
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Post by moridamn on Sept 10, 2019 1:07:01 GMT
Little bit of everything. Spread out scenarios hurt trolls a bit as we prefer to brick up more around the stone. The amount of anti-tough can be painful in matchups, since I've seen a solid amount of it. Being outgunned hurts as well since our own ranged game is on the weaker side.
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Post by sand20go on Sept 10, 2019 1:28:23 GMT
Little bit of everything. Spread out scenarios hurt trolls a bit as we prefer to brick up more around the stone. The amount of anti-tough can be painful in matchups, since I've seen a solid amount of it. Being outgunned hurts as well since our own ranged game is on the weaker side. Got it. That is a tough (sorry pun) nut to crack and a bit of a dead-end in design. I wonder if they could, for example, bump up the whole "regeneration" thing and give the multiwound stuff rapid healing.....or let you take 2 stones. Has anything been pitched into the interweb to see if the powers that be are paying attention? They have to be semi-concerned about one of the iconic factions in the game going into (pardon pun number 2) deep freeze.
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jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274
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Post by jarrow on Sept 10, 2019 6:24:32 GMT
I think trolls are fine and they can win as other factions do. What is the problem is that last ~4 CID cycled give so broken stuff to other factions that every good troll player switched to new greener grass. Trolls have got only couple of new releases in last 2 years so many troll players have found trolls too static to play. Moridamn is right too, as there is quite many things in current (and past) meta that hurt trolls, but there is also many aspects trolls are good (like bears).
Edit: And I think Dhunia archon will free our beast play ones she is released.
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Post by dickovdk on Sept 10, 2019 10:44:30 GMT
My take on what trolls need: Everything and nothing - Trolls are the jack-of-all trade faction, we can do everything just not well enough for it to matter. We are out-shined by the other factions that specialize it what trolls can do. Meaning it feels like trolls just can't keep up. WM/H is a game of spam that OP model and trolls simply do not have that model to spam. Having said that I feel trolls are more in need of some other factions getting dialed back to the balance curve (Circle & Skorne) and others have that few models balanced (aka Clockatrice & trident) for the better of the game. So either find a space for Trolls to be "special" or balance other stuff.
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Post by beardmonk on Sept 10, 2019 11:05:43 GMT
It echo what other have said. Objectively, Trolls are fine. They do what they are meant to do and I have great fun doing it. But for many people its not as exciting or as shiny as other factions. But it is telling how many circle and Grymkin player there are at WTC. Given that those factions are well above the curve in power and the WTC is one of the premier competitive events, players who want to win are taking lists that give them greater chances of winning.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Sept 10, 2019 12:56:48 GMT
I'll play along.
I would like to see: - A theme that is competitive and can't take the stone that allows us to play a different more spread out style (i'd make it Kriel Company)
- We're currently one of the worst hit by Harby/Clockatrices, because everything is living and we don't have good healing denial. Non living lists might be more difficult as it's hard to justify field marshall undead thematically in trolls, so maybe the other solution is a good caster with Dark Guidance.
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Post by michael on Sept 10, 2019 13:03:51 GMT
BeardedMonk beat me to it. The question is not “Why are Trolls so bad?”, the question is instead “Why do only two factions comprise almost a full third of all armies?” What is it about those two factions that make them so popular?
Were all things equal, one would expect each faction to compose roughly 5% of all lists. Trolls are at roughly 2.5%. Khador, Mercenaries, Cryx and Crucible Guard come closest to that expected value.
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izrian
Junior Strategist
Posts: 107
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Post by izrian on Sept 10, 2019 19:42:58 GMT
Many troll options are great, IMO. these are the things that need to be looked at.
Firstly, circle has better healing than we do. Tharn, nuff said.
Control ranges really hurt us, giving solos things like herding etc. Would help.
Many of our units are just bad or bad for the cost. I.E.
Highwaymen, burrowers, scouts, sons of Bragg, fenblades, kreil warriors, Scatter gunners, Sluggers, warders and rune shapers.
Literally half of our infantry doesn't punch or take a punch like it should.
I live the warders but for 17 points? Literally the best way to tar out em is with grissel 2 getting them up to arm 23. For a turn, and of you do that no way to heal em etc. Other examples exist lol.
Another issue I think we have, is our light war beasts, other than the battle box 3, why take anything else? To round out points? I am partial to the bashers, but that's bout it.
I'm a little stoned. But I think our biggest issue right now is, our defensive tech and abilities just don't matter as much as they used to. Which in turn makes us worse at senario and clock games. Certain casters still have some clout to them though.
I think grissel 2 has game, borka1 or 2, madrak 1, calandra, cold grandma, grim 1. Which is a pretty big list of casters that will just remain to have game for a while. BUT playing those casters exclusively means your list locked. Which... Sucks
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skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206
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Post by skurkious on Sept 10, 2019 21:43:16 GMT
My take on what trolls need: Everything and nothing - Trolls are the jack-of-all trade faction, we can do everything just not well enough for it to matter. We are out-shined by the other factions that specialize it what trolls can do. Meaning it feels like trolls just can't keep up. WM/H is a game of spam that OP model and trolls simply do not have that model to spam. Having said that I feel trolls are more in need of some other factions getting dialed back to the balance curve (Circle & Skorne) and others have that few models balanced (aka Clockatrice & trident) for the better of the game. So either find a space for Trolls to be "special" or balance other stuff. ^THIS! I feel like we've lost a bit of faction identity. What are trolls supposed to be GOOD at? Bricks? Support? Healing? Hitting really hard? Doesn't seem like we have one thing we can really hang our hat on currently.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Sept 10, 2019 23:18:43 GMT
I'mma reiterate what ahs been said before. Trolls, much like my main faction Khador or Cygnar for that matter, is a rather well balanced, as in it doesn't have any ridiculously over tuned models such as the clockatrice, dawnsled, railless + syvestro, ect. That makes the faction unfortunately unappealing in a competitive setting. Also there is the fact that CID didn't happen for trolls in a long time. Some people will point fingers and say that people just want to play with the new shiny toys, which might be true. It cant be denied however that fresh input attracts new thinking and a lack of new input facilitates stagnation.
It also doesnt help that Trolls are the natural prey of anything with GW or other anti tough/healing stuff, which isn't uncommon in other factions.
Also as mentione above, Trolls dont really do anything super well. Meat bricks are better done elsewhere, as are gunlines, melee centric lists, ect.
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Sept 11, 2019 13:24:59 GMT
A generic arc node. Whether it's a heavy like minions have, or a one off like Legion has, or some sort of sorcerous ability on a solo that survives. A generic arc node that could be taken across themes would do a metric ton of work towards improving troll position.
That said, I like my Trolls, I like playing my Trolls, and i don't think they are singularly bad. I do not understand the the thought process behind "My faction isn't 57% of the WTC, it must suck" mindset. But that's personal opinions and conversations to be had at LGSs.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Sept 11, 2019 13:54:34 GMT
A generic arc node. Whether it's a heavy like minions have, or a one off like Legion has, or some sort of sorcerous ability on a solo that survives. A generic arc node that could be taken across themes would do a metric ton of work towards improving troll position. That said, I like my Trolls, I like playing my Trolls, and i don't think they are singularly bad. I do not understand the the thought process behind "My faction isn't 57% of the WTC, it must suck" mindset. But that's personal opinions and conversations to be had at LGSs. I wish PP wouldn't have diluted faction identities as much as they did. Arc nodes are just one example, noKD+tough's another. Mulg used to be really cool, but I agree, with today's meta everyone and their dog has a cheap arcnode. The fact Tharn have rapid healing and trolls don't is also crazy. I kinda wish they gave trolls a model that negates griveous in a bubble. Archon would've been the perfect contender.
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Post by michael on Sept 11, 2019 16:13:25 GMT
The last few posts contain abundant gross oversimplifications. Just to hit a few:
— “most” or “all” factions do not have cheap arc nodes. Khador doesn’t have any arc nodes (outside of PC 10 Lancers for 2 casters in 1 Oblivion theme), Cygnar and Protectorate still pay 10+ points for theirs, Grymkin has none at all, Skorne has one caster with Dark Rituals and an FA 3 solo in only one theme, Mercenaries have only the two iterations of Magnus that can take an arc node, and so forth.
— “Grievous Wounds isn’t uncommon in other factions” is not true. Grievous and/or anti-healing is, in fact, very uncommon in many factions, when not discussing mercenaries. All of Khador’s Grievous and no healing (outside of Butcher3) is bundled in Wolves of Winter. Cygnar gets it on one weapon crew in one theme. Mercenaries get it on solos in the Irregulars theme, leaving others in the cold. Convergence only gets it on a critical effect on one warjack weapon. Protectorate gets it on, what, a single character warjack? Certain factions have Grievous/no healing in abundance (Circle, Cryx, Skorne), but that is just not common across the game.
Your perceptions about Trollbloods’ deficits relative to other factions are not based upon facts.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Sept 11, 2019 17:37:42 GMT
The last few posts contain abundant gross oversimplifications. Just to hit a few: — “most” or “all” factions do not have cheap arc nodes. Khador doesn’t have any arc nodes (outside of PC 10 Lancers for 2 casters in 1 Oblivion theme), Cygnar and Protectorate still pay 10+ points for theirs, Grymkin has none at all, Skorne has one caster with Dark Rituals and an FA 3 solo in only one theme, Mercenaries have only the two iterations of Magnus that can take an arc node, and so forth. — “Grievous Wounds isn’t uncommon in other factions” is not true. Grievous and/or anti-healing is, in fact, very uncommon in many factions, when not discussing mercenaries. All of Khador’s Grievous and no healing (outside of Butcher3) is bundled in Wolves of Winter. Cygnar gets it on one weapon crew in one theme. Mercenaries get it on solos in the Irregulars theme, leaving others in the cold. Convergence only gets it on a critical effect on one warjack weapon. Protectorate gets it on, what, a single character warjack? Certain factions have Grievous/no healing in abundance (Circle, Cryx, Skorne), but that is just not common across the game. Your perceptions about Trollbloods’ deficits relative to other factions are not based upon facts. You're not wrong, but I think we're talking about the meta defining stuff right now, not just any list. DevHost has griveous, rapid healing; Exalted have noKD/Tough and channelers aplenty; and grymkin have mass clocks. Sure, for fun lists are relatively balanced (sorta), but what if you wanna tryhard a bit?
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