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Post by borderprince on Sept 3, 2019 12:03:21 GMT
This thread has turned out more negative than I expected. Didn't the Khador forums used to be more upbeat than this? I think the issue is that the models mentioned aren't so coherent a concept as the old Sorscha's 11/13. As Growl noted, that list wasn't just "lots of mercs". It was directed towards denial via stealth and high-def (when Iron Flesh was a DEF buff) and a strong assassination threat. With the loss of the Iron Flesh DEF buff that kind of build has become harder to carry off (increasing amounts of sprays (Crucible Guard) doesn't help either).
So I don't think this is just people being negative. I think it's more that the first post just sort of pointed towards "take lots of shooting models", without really explaining why we needed mercs to do it/what mercs do better.
Were I to try a high-DEF/stealth list with a significant shooting load now, it would probably be either Jaws (Widowmakers, Eliminators, Croe's) or Wolves of Winter (Croe's, Ternion for clouds, Lords + Void Archons for ARM debuffs, maybe Outriders). Croe's are probably better than Nyss, at least if you can leverage Prey (which is a whole other debate). Reposition 5" + Valachev if in Wolves is a lot of movement for them.
If you do want lots of mercs, I'd probably take OW2 over Sorscha1. You lose the personal assassination threat, but debuffs aren't Friendly Faction and she brings some anti-shooting tech.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Sept 3, 2019 12:13:01 GMT
It wasn't based around Iron Flesh, Sorscha1 never had that. If anything Fog of War is the bigger piece because it provided a lot of the Merc solos with stealth.
When I played it, the strength came from the high quality shooting combined with the defensive buff from Sorscha and the time walk feat against infantry. You could basically snipe out whole units a turn. I included Aiyana & Holt plus Rorsch & Brine (think that's where I differed from the "standard" version), who was the only real ARM cracker. Though again you can whittle down heavies pretty fast if needed. Also you can make them stationary or knock them down then snipe out spirit or cortex.
Another advantage is that basically any damage buff feats were basically useless against it. I wiped a Sorscha2 list at UK Nationals one year, my opponent effectively didn't have a feat.
Can't quite remember, but I think the main players in the list for me were:
Sylys Alten Ashley Kell Bailoch Orin Midwinter Rorsch & Brine Aiyana & Holt Widowmaker Marksmen Widowmakers
Rest I can't remember.
I wonder if we should be looking at Old Witch2's 11 instead..?
Cheers, Dave
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Post by borderprince on Sept 3, 2019 13:51:46 GMT
That's embarassing. My memory is obviously starting to go with age, confusing Sorscha 1, 2 and 13.
I think we definitely need more damages buffs for this to work now. Mk2 was so infantry heavy that merc shooting was great. In mk3 we generally assume there will be higher ARM and more boxes on the field. So yes, definitely consider OW2. Partly for the damage buff, but also for being able to load jacks more readily to give the hard ARM cracking we need these days.
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Post by cplmustard on Sept 3, 2019 18:28:59 GMT
For neat out of theme merc tech there's always boomy2 + hermit for a spd8 hermit The problem with any out of theme option is you have to balance cool synergies against getting outnumbered either badly or extremely badly, and using a bunch of high cost solos makes the problem even worse. I think there's potential for out of theme stuff with sorscha1, but you need something to make scenario not a complete write-off, 2x press gangers maybe?
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Post by sand20go on Sept 3, 2019 19:56:01 GMT
It wasn't based around Iron Flesh, Sorscha1 never had that. If anything Fog of War is the bigger piece because it provided a lot of the Merc solos with stealth. When I played it, the strength came from the high quality shooting combined with the defensive buff from Sorscha and the time walk feat against infantry. You could basically snipe out whole units a turn. I included Aiyana & Holt plus Rorsch & Brine (think that's where I differed from the "standard" version), who was the only real ARM cracker. Though again you can whittle down heavies pretty fast if needed. Also you can make them stationary or knock them down then snipe out spirit or cortex. Another advantage is that basically any damage buff feats were basically useless against it. I wiped a Sorscha2 list at UK Nationals one year, my opponent effectively didn't have a feat. Can't quite remember, but I think the main players in the list for me were: Sylys Alten Ashley Kell Bailoch Orin Midwinter Rorsch & Brine Aiyana & Holt Widowmaker Marksmen Widowmakers Rest I can't remember. I wonder if we should be looking at Old Witch2's 11 instead..? Cheers, Dave R&B is the wild card but yeah. That is the core of the list. And to the original point..... Dez (typoed as Dax) - RNG 12 POW 14 boosted boozka that slams small and medium - Sp 5 Steelhead cannon+gunner (9 point module) - RN 14, Pow 14 boosted, SPD 6 (wth the grunts). Knockdown. Situationally useful to have the Seige weapon e4 - (assume assualt) POW 10 boosted, rng 22. Now I am not saying this is (any) good at this point. But it feels "fun". Pair it with some sort of armor hunting list (Maurader spam with Karchev?) to get a good list chicken situation. The Threat ranges with the shooting are pretty good and absent huge base spam you CAN knock down a decent amount of stuff to open up LOS. conflictchamber.com/?c3201b477p7p9v2TplpmoZoBpp7m7ynwnw8rnsns8eKhador !!! This army contains a pre-release entry. !!! This army contains a CID entry. [Sorscha 1] Kommander Sorscha [+29] - Destroyer [14] - Destroyer [14] - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, the Seeker [4] Alten Ashley [6] Dez [4] Eiryss, Fortune Hunter of Ios [6] Glyn Cormier, Illuminated One [6] Harlan Versh, Illuminated One [4] Harlowe Holdemhigh [5] Kell Bailoch [5] Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [5] Steelhead Gunner [3] Steelhead Gunner [3] Widowmaker Marksman [4] Steelhead Cannon Crew [6] Steelhead Cannon Crew [6] Widowmaker Scouts [8]
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Sept 3, 2019 22:22:38 GMT
sand20go why the steelhead gunners and cannon crews?, why not just have 2 field guns and Joe for the extra RAT if needed, then for the left over 6 points get another solo? Like hutchuk or something for some behind the lines threat and shenanigans? Likewise with regard to sylys, I always preferred Reinholdt for the stealth removal or even the adjunct for eyeless and magic and better range etc. edit, also I cannot find Glyn Cormier, who is that?
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Post by sand20go on Sept 3, 2019 23:23:11 GMT
sand20go why the steelhead gunners and cannon crews?, why not just have 2 field guns and Joe for the extra RAT if needed, then for the left over 6 points get another solo? Like hutchuk or something for some behind the lines threat and shenanigans? Likewise with regard to sylys, I always preferred Reinholdt for the stealth removal or even the adjunct for eyeless and magic and better range etc. edit, also I cannot find Glyn Cormier, who is that? Because Boosted POW 14s (and seige weapons into huge bases for 4D6) I thought Slyss because it is nice to occasionally land Freezing grip the turn(s) before you go for the killing run. Gyln is the new Order of Illuminati solo. Now I can't BELIEVE she will keep her week 1 rules (which were broken) but if dailed back to Hermit levels expect her to be drooled over.... warmachineuniversity.com/mw/index.php/Glyn_Cormier,_Illuminated_One
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Sept 4, 2019 4:45:13 GMT
I've been thinking about it overnight, and I think Old Witch 2 is definitely the way forward for this type of list in MKIII. She has a damage buff the guns can use, can blind and knockdown things (combine with Eiryss1 for no shaking) and has defensive tech for them. The only thing I don't like is loosing Fog of War to hand out stealth to the prowl solos, Kell and Harlowe mostly.
Will see what I can come up with.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Sept 4, 2019 5:13:19 GMT
Old Witch2 +27 -Greylord Adjunct -4 -Rager -10 -Spriggan -17 Alten Ashley -6 Dez -4 Eiryss1 -7 Harlowe Holdemhigh -5 Hutchuck -6 Kell Bailoch -5 Orin Midwinter -5 Widowmaker Marksman -4 Battle Mechaniks (Min) -3 Kayazy Eliminators -5 Kayazy Eliminators -5 Lady Aiyana & Master Holt -8 Widowmaker Scouts -8
That's what I've got to so far, which I quite like I think. Would really like to change the spriggan for Behemoth, but just can't find the 8pts needed. Could drop an eliminator unit, swap the mechaniks to a tinker and drop Hutchuck for a 4pt option, but not sure that's worth it.
No idea how it would hold up in an actual match through!
Cheers, Dave
EDIT: Actually after a further look I prefer this:
Zevanna Agha, The Fate Keeper +27 -Greylord Adjunct -4 -Rager -10 -Spriggan -17 Alten Ashley -6 Dez -4 Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios -7 Harlan Versh, Illuminated One -4 Harlowe Holdemhigh -5 Hutchuck, Ogrun Bounty Hunter -6 Kell Bailoch -5 Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor -5 Steelhead Ironhead -4 Widowmaker Marksman -4 Kayazy Eliminators -5 Lady Aiyana & Master Holt -8 Widowmaker Scouts -8
EDIT EDIT: And this second list has 11 solos! Witch's 11 is here!
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Post by Soul Samurai on Sept 4, 2019 10:18:08 GMT
[Sorscha 1] Kommander Sorscha [+29] - Destroyer [14] - Destroyer [14] So I'm looking at this and thinking "... why not swap a Destroyer for a Decimator"? Less range but more dakka (at least when you're shooting at frozen stuff so you don't need to boost attack rolls), and Bulldoze might just help clear sight lines.
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smoth
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
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Post by smoth on Sept 12, 2019 20:44:21 GMT
This thread has turned out more negative than I expected. Didn't the Khador forums used to be more upbeat than this? So, how about a hybrid list? Something that has a strong assassination threat but isn't left floundering if the opponent has some tech that shuts said assassination down? I love the idea of actually using all those merc models that everyone has leftover from MkII. Sure, that probably means going out of theme (otherwise it's just good ol' Sorscha + Winter Guard of course), so yeah, probably more of a casual list for friendly games. I'm thinking... S1, Adjunct, Spriggans or Victor (2" reach since her threat extension game is middling, plus or course more anti-stealth than just the Adjunct can provide), Cutthroats (Prey on the caster just to make your opponent nervous), a Koldun Lord or two for armour cracking and/or more anti-stealth, shooty solos like Harlan Versh, Kell Bailoch, Harlowe... maaaaaybe some MOW for staying power? I want to add Nyss Hunters, but they are a bit pricey. If the newer Morrowan releases will work for Khador out of theme there could be some interesting options there? magnus etc are not around as much
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