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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 28, 2019 23:57:59 GMT
Folks, I’m trying to build out a jack-heavy list that would compliment either Vlad 3 Warriors or an Exemplar list (Cyrena is my working theory).
Here’s what I was thinking...
War Room Army
Protectorate of Menoth - Amon’s Might
Theme: The Creator's Might 75 / 75 Army
High Allegiant Amon Ad-Raza - WJ: +29 - Hierophant - PC: 0 - Judicator - PC: 35 (Battlegroup Points Used: 29) - Crusader - PC: 10 - Crusader - PC: 10 - Crusader - PC: 10 - Devout - PC: 9 - Purifier - PC: 8 - Dervish - PC: 7 - Dervish - PC: 7
Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Exemplar Warder - PC: 0
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4
My thinking...
The Judicator is in to abuse Fortify. I’ve looked at tournament lists on Discountgames and can’t find anyone using a colossal with Amon, which surprises me. I get that you want to abuse synergy, but Amon does not want to be knocked down...and, well, a MAT 9, ARM 21 (!), SPD 7, POW 26 huge base 60 box beatstick that gives friendly models no knockdown/push/slam seems freaking amazing to me. I also don’t own 5 more dervishes in place of the Judy. I do have other lights/heavies I could sub in, but...wow, what am I missing? Having an ARM 21 Judy that threatens 12” to anchor a synergy chain seems really good.
Crusaders and Dervishes because, well, because that’s how many I own.
Devout to protect Amon.
Purifier because MAT 10, POW 16 overtake and beat back on a stick (with Parry...) seems really, really tasty.
Everything else is filler. The Hierophant in this list seems more useful as a free model than Gade.
Meanwhile, can someone explain why the Requisition slot doesn’t get you 3 wracks? Am I missing something?
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Aug 29, 2019 0:42:05 GMT
I always felt like Templars would do well with Amon.
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Post by greytemplar on Aug 29, 2019 7:32:04 GMT
Templars are great with him. He really wants a shield guard too. They're also hilarious under Fortify. Yeah, I'm arm23 cant be knocked down, have parry, and I'm mat/pow >9000!!!
The main reason you won't see many Colossals with Amon is that they are the most inefficient use of Synergy and his feat. You get more bang for your buck with equal points of Dervish's or Crusaders.
Just think about it, you can have 5 Dervish's for the price of a Judicator. That's 10 attacks to build synergy with, and unlike a Colossal they actually benefit from the boost to the damage more. +3 damage is more useful on a pow13 weapon than a pow21.
A swarm of Dervish's is shockingly destructive, even without any additional focus to power them. Their free focus is enough for them to tear stuff apart once Synergy is up and running. A dervish with Choir and full synergy is hitting with 3 pow18 attacks at mat10.
Thats not to say the Colossal is bad with Amon. Its definitely good. its just not the best choice for the points for him specifically, and thats why you don't see it much.
If I were to improve it, aside from just saying "get 5 more dervishes", I would get a couple Templars instead of the Judicator. More free focus, more individual bodies for him to use. Jack spam lists tend to get swamped by horde lists, so its helpful to have as many bodies as possible. Though a lot of Dervishes help with that as they are glorious at killing infantry. Side-step>beat back+overtake.
Oh and ummm, Amon has Steady, so he doesn't need help from Fortify. Which is hilarious on an assassination run when you make a couple tough rolls in a row.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Aug 29, 2019 13:18:46 GMT
Amon in Faithful Masses with a few Sanctifiers is also pretty good. +5/+7 on them works really well and they just make their own focus. The infantry options also help a ton with keeping the jack line safe.
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martini
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by martini on Aug 29, 2019 14:07:16 GMT
Sevy 0 with a Dervish helps a lot.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Aug 29, 2019 16:06:12 GMT
With Amon, I would debate that. Synergy and Choir give a pretty nice bonus already and Sev+Dervish take a free slot and 7 points that don't benefit or give benefit to the BG.
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Post by greytemplar on Aug 29, 2019 16:12:37 GMT
Yeah. You don't want a Junior with Amon. The Junior's jacks can't benefit from Synergy, Fortify, or Mobility. And Amon is one of our few lists that doesn't have a need for Eye of Menoth.
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martini
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by martini on Aug 29, 2019 16:30:06 GMT
Road to war is similar to mobility. As for offensive You trade +0+0, +1+1, +2+2, +3+3 ,+3+3 etc on Amon for +1+1 on Sevi Jack and +1+1, +2+2, +3+3, +4+4 etc on Amon. So its a better start of the synergy chain and a higher ceiling. +2 armor can be used on other Jacks.
Lastly You can always sens it on a flank to secure a zone.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Aug 29, 2019 20:46:15 GMT
That extra Dervish being in Amon's BG can also contribute the +1 to Synergy and save you a solo slot.
I wouldn't trust a paper defense Dervish to secure a zone, maybe it can contest one for a turn. I would trust Sevy to hold a zone on his own in a lot of cases, but not when it costs a slot in Amon that could be 2 Vassals or focus support that he loves.
Not that you're wrong, and please don't think I'm saying you're wrong, because there really isn't a wrong way to make a list in Warmachine.
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Post by greytemplar on Aug 29, 2019 22:23:34 GMT
Road to war is similar to mobility. +2 armor can be used on other Jacks. 1) No. No its not. Unconditional +2 spd and Pathfinder vs a free 3" movement when something dies are not at all comparable. It also only applies to jack's in Sevy0s battlegroup.
2) Fortify is Battlegroup only. As is Synergy and Mobility.
Yes, Eye of Menoth lets you get the synergy chain started easier and you cap out higher. but that doesn't make up for having 1 jack that isn't benefiting from Amon's buffs.
Plus with Dervish's being Mat7 base and with 2 base attacks, they are already fantastic at starting the synergy chain. And if I really need to, I can use the free focus to boost the hit roll and guarantee I get it started.
If Sevy0 did have to take a jack, then yes he would be fantastic with Amon. He'd be amazing in any list, but him having to take a jack kinda locks you out of lists where the caster has a lot of battlegroup focused abilities.
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Post by jagius021 on Aug 29, 2019 23:45:29 GMT
I enjoyed using sevy 0 with a reckoner in my Amon list. Those rockets can put the hurt on from far away and open up some board space. It seemed a fair trade off to me.
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Post by greytemplar on Aug 30, 2019 6:07:51 GMT
I suppose if you wanted some ranged support it wouldn't be a terrible idea. Its definitely suboptimal for a melee jack though.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 30, 2019 9:49:37 GMT
For those with experience here, is it worthwhile giving up 1-2 jacks in order to run a tarpit out front?
Specifically, what about running a full unit of Exemplars with a couple of Sanctifiers to recycle the souls? I like the idea of an AD screening unit with some guns, Pathfinder and Unyielding. Perhaps maxing the unit is overkill.
Anyway on feat turn this list can sink 5 fully loaded jacks into the unfaithful.
Theme: Exemplar Interdiction 75 / 75 Army
High Allegiant Amon Ad-Raza - WJ: +29 - Sanctifier - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Sanctifier - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Crusader - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 1) - Crusader - PC: 10 - Crusader - PC: 10 - Purifier - PC: 8 - Dervish - PC: 7 - Dervish - PC: 7
Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Exemplar Errant Seneschal - PC: 0
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Exemplar Errants - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 - Exemplar Errant Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 0
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Aug 30, 2019 14:47:33 GMT
I like the idea of an AD screening unit with some guns Switch to Faithful Masses and have it be a unit of Idrians or two, or even some Zealots and you'll be cooking. I ran an Amon list before the theme remix with 3 Sanctifiers, 2 Crusaders, and 2 full units of Idrians, with support. With the remix, it could be made even stronger.
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martini
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by martini on Aug 30, 2019 22:03:50 GMT
Road to war is similar to mobility. +2 armor can be used on other Jacks. 1) No. No its not. Unconditional +2 spd and Pathfinder vs a free 3" movement when something dies are not at all comparable. It also only applies to jack's in Sevy0s battlegroup.
2) Fortify is Battlegroup only. As is Synergy and Mobility.
Yes, Eye of Menoth lets you get the synergy chain started easier and you cap out higher. but that doesn't make up for having 1 jack that isn't benefiting from Amon's buffs.
Plus with Dervish's being Mat7 base and with 2 base attacks, they are already fantastic at starting the synergy chain. And if I really need to, I can use the free focus to boost the hit roll and guarantee I get it started.
If Sevy0 did have to take a jack, then yes he would be fantastic with Amon. He'd be amazing in any list, but him having to take a jack kinda locks you out of lists where the caster has a lot of battlegroup focused abilities.
Road to war gives a nonlinear charge line or a longer charge range when there is no rough terrain. The Jack under Sevy0 won't lag behind by much (1" when running on normal terrain). Somehow I compared it to each other. Fortify works on only one Jack so instead of choosing 1 of 10 Jacks You choose 1 of 9 so still lots of targets to put it on. Crusader is a better target for fortify. And the Dervish has protection from magic thanks to Sevy0 that Amon does not provide. When putting Dervish on Sevy0 You deal overall more DMG when compared to giving all Jacks to Amon. The start is higher, the top is higher and the Dervish on Sevy0 can get focus. On Amon only the end of the chain get focus. On feat turn he can spend 7 focus. Vassals add two more. That can fill the first 5 jacks, the rest are bulding the synergy chain and can charge and do initials without boosting attack roll. Pathfinder and immunity to free strikes are the big things to consider but Dervish already has parry. As for requsition points 2 Vassals, Sevy0 and Warder are my choise.
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