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Post by elladan52 on Apr 24, 2017 17:03:34 GMT
So the guy who measures things out is a d-bag but the guy who can just eyeball it is the greatest? Sure thing buddy.
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Post by pangurban on Apr 24, 2017 17:06:18 GMT
I'm just going to conclude you and I have very different ideas of what constitutes depth. The problem I have with your logic specifically though is that there's often no element of uncertainty even without premeasuring, depending on the army type and the player's skill at eyeballing. As for just needing practice, I don't see the point. For me eyeballing distances shouldn't be a relevant skill other than as a time saver. We could just as well require the player who is not active to juggle 5 dice until it's his turn again. That'd feel about equally pertinent to me. You yourself have admitted why being able to guess distances correctly is a relevant skill. It saves time, and it is a way to gather vital information. That makes it a relevant skill, unlike juggling dice which serves no purpose at all. Im sure you can agree that its no fun waiting for 10 minutes while some d-bag measures out a ''perfect turn'' to avoid all possible retaliation. Sure, its on his clock, but its still no fun. Being allowed to pre-measure doesn't mean getting to measure willy-nilly, as the current issue proves. The fact that you feel it's appropriate to name someone who takes 10 mins measuring out his turn a d-bag doesn't endear me to your arguments either. I've seen players spending 5-6 mins doing nothing but thinking as well, by the way. And obviously eyeballing is not an indispensable skill for gathering info if premeasuring is allowed. Which is the entire point here. But if you want another example: why not require everyone to memorise every model's stats and rules? That'd save a lot of time looking things up and passing cards back and forth, and it's clearly vital information.
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Post by greytemplar on Apr 24, 2017 17:10:00 GMT
Sohe guy who measures things out is a d-bag but theSomeone ball it is the greatest? Sure thing buddy. He's a dbag because he is dragging his feet and not actually making a decision. Its irritating. Someone thinkingn isnt causing any issues for me. I personally dont usually spend more than 1-2 minutes thinking over a turn. I try to keep the game moving at least. Unlike dudes who take all the time in the world to measue everything and anything. He isnt making any decisions. He's hopingnthe measurements make the decisions for him. That is what irritates me.
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Post by elladan52 on Apr 24, 2017 17:11:58 GMT
Sohe guy who measures things out is a d-bag but theSomeone ball it is the greatest? Sure thing buddy. He's a dbag because he is dragging his feet and not actually making a decision. Its irritating. Someone thinkingn isnt causing any issues for me. I personally dont usually spend more than 1-2 minutes thinking over a turn. I try to keep the gamb e moving at least. Unlike dudes who take all the time in the world to measue everything and anything. So thinking about tactical options makes someone a dbag? You say thinking doesn't bother you, but it very clearly does if it's accompanied by premeasuring. What about the guy that spends time eyeballing his options? Still a dbag? Edit: For all your love of "depth" you certainly seem to have little patience for those who like to explore it.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Apr 24, 2017 17:24:30 GMT
Sohe guy who measures things out is a d-bag but theSomeone ball it is the greatest? Sure thing buddy. He's a dbag because he is dragging his feet and not actually making a decision. Its irritating. Someone thinkingn isnt causing any issues for me. I personally dont usually spend more than 1-2 minutes thinking over a turn. I try to keep the game moving at least. Unlike dudes who take all the time in the world to measue everything and anything. He isnt making any decisions. He's hopingnthe measurements make the decisions for him. That is what irritates me. So he's a douchebag for taking longer than any prescribed time to reach a decision? And how is it better to watch a person think for 10 minutes than to watch them lay out their plan visually? Would it also offend you if they think out loud? Measurements do not replace decisions, they inform them. My turns in Mk3 have been a LOT faster due to the certainty they provide me with.
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Post by schostoppa1 on Apr 24, 2017 17:37:33 GMT
The issue with GW wasnt the company catering to the "spirit of the game." It was the way too lax rule set. Everytime a new codex came out that faction was typically on the top end of the power curve and most of your old army became worthless and you had to buy into the newest meta just to stay competitive. Secondly in Dev Talk i know Soles specifically said the current way premeausuring is used is not what they had in mind and dont see it as the direction they want the gane to go. i happen to agree. I hate knowing everything at all times. I want some excitement and surprise. Someone called it Cat and Mouse and thats the perfect explaination. Players need a way to capitalize on and punish a bad placement. (And opportunities to make that bad placement) This whole argument of wether or not "eyeballing" or "proxy planning" are skill sets that should be valued over the other in the game has been solved with the communication by PP. They value "eyeballing." If PP valued eyeballing that much, they'd revert measuring restrictions to Mk II. Even with the limitations currently in CID you don't really need to eyeball anything ever. PP seems to be trying to find/impose a balance between being able to map out and verify your chosen course of action while not being able to try out two dozen possible turns before committing. Premeasuring is ok. Testrunning your turn six ways to Sunday is not. so then how do have allow premeasuring but take away testrunning at the same time?
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Post by schostoppa1 on Apr 24, 2017 17:40:03 GMT
He's a dbag because he is dragging his feet and not actually making a decision. Its irritating. Someone thinkingn isnt causing any issues for me. I personally dont usually spend more than 1-2 minutes thinking over a turn. I try to keep the game moving at least. Unlike dudes who take all the time in the world to measue everything and anything. He isnt making any decisions. He's hopingnthe measurements make the decisions for him. That is what irritates me. So he's a douchebag for taking longer than any prescribed time to reach a decision? And how is it better to watch a person think for 10 minutes than to watch them lay out their plan visually? Would it also offend you if they think out loud? Measurements do not replace decisions, they inform them. My turns in Mk3 have been a LOT faster due to the certainty they provide me with. its because no one ever has see someone stand there eyeballing things and planning out a turn in their heads for 10 solid minutes and not move a model. the reverse is dedinately true with premeasuring
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Post by elladan52 on Apr 24, 2017 17:42:12 GMT
So he's a douchebag for taking longer than any prescribed time to reach a decision? And how is it better to watch a person think for 10 minutes than to watch them lay out their plan visually? Would it also offend you if they think out loud? Measurements do not replace decisions, they inform them. My turns in Mk3 have been a LOT faster due to the certainty they provide me with. its because no one ever has see someone stand there eyeballing things and planning out a turn in their heads for 10 solid minutes and not move a model. the reverse is dedinately true with premeasuring That is categorically false. People spent that much time and more planning out turns and agonizing over whether or not they were just in or just out in mk2.
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Post by schostoppa1 on Apr 24, 2017 17:45:34 GMT
counter false. im not saying a turn never took 10min. im saying analysis paralysis has never struck a non premeasuring player for 10 minutes
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Post by elladan52 on Apr 24, 2017 17:47:38 GMT
counter false. im not saying a turn never took 10min. im saying analysis paralysis has never struck a non premeasuring player for 10 minutes You sure you want to use the word never? ETA, give me a minute and I will find you some games. What's your magic number? How many games have you yourself seen in person where the premeasuring player took 10 minutes without moving a model?
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Apr 24, 2017 17:49:48 GMT
So he's a douchebag for taking longer than any prescribed time to reach a decision? And how is it better to watch a person think for 10 minutes than to watch them lay out their plan visually? Would it also offend you if they think out loud? Measurements do not replace decisions, they inform them. My turns in Mk3 have been a LOT faster due to the certainty they provide me with. its because no one ever has see someone stand there eyeballing things and planning out a turn in their heads for 10 solid minutes and not move a model. the reverse is dedinately true with premeasuring I assure you the opposite is true. But that's just my word against yours. The point is: You cannot stop your opponent from "wasting" (and I don't have inverted commas large enough for this) 60 minutes of your time. They can legally use that time to leave and have lunch if they so please. But is watching someone visualize their thoughts really that offensive to you?
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Nyxu
Overseer
NaCl Elemental
Posts: 119
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Post by Nyxu on Apr 24, 2017 17:50:05 GMT
Ok. Let's ease some things out. I'd like to ask for a bit of good faith for our community member Templar, who is more than likely referring to someone in the abuse case of proxy/premeasure as a d-bag. This is a bit of a straw man argument and his choice of phrasing could use work, but let's not let one misstep derail an entire discussion. greytemplar , is it fair to say that you could have used less perjorative terms, and better defined the abuse case that upsets you? Everyone else, let's keep things constructive - even when one of us slips up and says something that makes them sound like a butt munch.
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Post by elladan52 on Apr 24, 2017 17:57:38 GMT
Ok. Let's ease some things out. I'd like to ask for a bit of good faith for our community member Templar, who is more than likely referring to someone in the abuse case of proxy/premeasure as a d-bag. This is a bit of a straw man argument and his choice of phrasing could use work, but let's not let one misstep derail an entire discussion. greytemplar , is it fair to say that you could have used less perjorative terms, and better defined the abuse case that upsets you? Everyone else, let's keep things constructive - even when one of us slips up and says something that makes them sound like a butt munch. There are absolutely no strawmen here. I am taking Grey templar at his word, and I am interested to see how he responds. He said that taking up time premeasuring is being a jerk, not taking up time "abusing" (whatever the heck that means) premeasuring. So far he has not said why taking the same time eyealling threat ranges and planning the turn does not also make one a jerk.
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Post by pangurban on Apr 24, 2017 18:04:38 GMT
If PP valued eyeballing that much, they'd revert measuring restrictions to Mk II. Even with the limitations currently in CID you don't really need to eyeball anything ever. PP seems to be trying to find/impose a balance between being able to map out and verify your chosen course of action while not being able to try out two dozen possible turns before committing. Premeasuring is ok. Testrunning your turn six ways to Sunday is not. so then how do have allow premeasuring but take away testrunning at the same time? I said PP is trying to strike a balance. There are players here saying they see people try out half a dozen different sets of activations to see what will work out best: personally I've never encountered this, but with the restrictions on premeasuring in CID doing so is practically impossible. At the same time these restrictions still allow you to verify if what you want to do is possible or not and if it's the latter you won't have used up so much time you can't (quickly) do something else. It's the difference between doing one testrun and then either doing just that or doing something else, or doing three completely different testruns before deciding what you want to do and then still having to finetune with yet another testrun.
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Post by schostoppa1 on Apr 24, 2017 18:07:33 GMT
so then how do have allow premeasuring but take away testrunning at the same time? I said PP is trying to strike a balance. There are players here saying they see people try out half a dozen different sets of activations to see what will work out best: personally I've never encountered this, but with the restrictions on premeasuring in CID doing so is practically impossible. At the same time these restrictions still allow you to verify if what you want to do is possible or not and if it's the latter you won't have used up so much time you can't (quickly) do something else. It's the difference between doing one testrun and then either doing just that or doing something else, or doing three completely different testruns before deciding what you want to do and then still having to finetune with yet another testrun. sry. i should have clarified. I agreed with you with PP trying ti strike a balance. My question was more for the thread as whole.
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