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Post by pangurban on Apr 28, 2017 14:32:26 GMT
Sure, though I'm willing to cut PP a bit more slack: it's their game, so they get to decide what direction to take it in (we just get to decide whether we like that direction or not and what we want to do about that), and they have much, much more information than any given player. Not everyone on CID seems to grasp this. Synergy Anyone? More information doesn't necessarily make you a more collected person. PP has shown to be utterly disconnected from the game at times, and playing their own version with whatever secret rules they want. What's wrong with Synergy?
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Apr 28, 2017 14:33:10 GMT
PP has shown to be utterly disconnected from the game at times, and playing their own version with whatever secret rules they want. Well yeah. The game as a whole clearly exists in many different forms. One form is, to quote Soles, "the game we (PP) set out to create". PP's vision. Presumably how they play in-house. The product that they want us to love on the merits of their design and their intended feel. Then there are all those forms that we players create independently of PP without their guidance. PP have no control over what we do with their product, after all, their only control is when they regulate organised play and tournaments. Generally speaking, PP don't have a direct say over how we play - but through organised play, they can control some parts of it, or at least try and influence it. I don't think it's a bad thing that PP are trying to get organised play to follow their vision. They have to believe in their vision, after all. Otherwise their efforts to design a game would be hollow and formulaic. It's like if I design a beautiful piece of art, and when people buy it, they end up using it to hammer in nails because it somehow works. I could go "whatever" and make the art better at hammering in nails, giving the customer what they ask for. But if I believe that my art has merit as art, I will try and convince the customer to see it as art instead, because I believe in my own vision of the product. And I earnestly believe that the customers will appreciate it more if they learn to see it as art.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 28, 2017 14:44:39 GMT
What's wrong with Synergy? Nothing, just when talking about the changes made the the rules of the game, and how Synergy will be limited to +3/+3, they said that at least its cost will go down to 2 Focus....But it was always 2 Focus. Thats not the problem: If they sell how to make an awesome bed without instructions, and then get annoyed that people end up using it for firewood.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Apr 28, 2017 16:38:46 GMT
Thats not the problem: If they sell how to make an awesome bed without instructions, and then get annoyed that people end up using it for firewood. Or they successfully build the bed using only half the parts, breaking a few supports in the process, don't use a mattress, then complain it's not comfortable and it's the manufacturers fault.
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wishing
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by wishing on Apr 28, 2017 16:48:50 GMT
I don't understand the bed metaphor. How does the bed coming without instructions correspond to the situation at hand?
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 28, 2017 17:19:47 GMT
I don't understand the bed metaphor. How does the bed coming without instructions correspond to the situation at hand? Lack of communication on PPs part and playing with Rules players will only have access too Months of not years down the line. Theme forces took forever to come out despite being a very integral part of MKIII (For instance)
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Post by catulle on Apr 28, 2017 19:43:58 GMT
For values of "forever" that actually mean "less that a year" then, uh, sure. Shine on.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Apr 29, 2017 1:01:04 GMT
They started the discussion on premeasuring by saying that they aren't going to remove it, that it's going to happen. Not the way CID should happen. This is clearly a divisive subject, but PP probably didn't think that it would be. CID at least offers PP the opportunity to gauge community response as well as test a rule before releasing it in the wild. Better to find out in CID if an idea works than to just put it out there is what I meant. I'm sorry that I wasn't clear enough (not meant sarcastically, I really wasn't very clear). As I said, I doubt very much that the rule will remain as it is currently written. I actually suspect that they'll make it a variant instead, but I have nothing to base that on beyond the push back from the community. I made a personal request to Hungerford about making it a variant. The most eye opening moment about how terrible the current rule is when I tried to explain the rule to a pair of new players. Literally impossible.
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Post by mikethefish on Apr 29, 2017 4:27:10 GMT
Yeah I heard about this petition, but hadn't actally witnessed it until now. This has to be one of the most ridiculous and juvenile things that PP players have ever attempted. This is happening. PP has good reasons for doing this. It's a good thing for the game (assuming the CID can come up with an acceptable wording). This ludicrous attempt to bully PP into aquiescing on this issue makes me marvel at the inflated egos of some of this game's players.
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Post by crimsonguard on Apr 29, 2017 9:46:51 GMT
I agree, this petition is just stupid and I hope it completely tanks because if it's a succes it will only enforce the idea that if you cry/whine enough you'll get what you want (reasonable or not)
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Apr 29, 2017 10:00:32 GMT
Here is the thing. I signed the petition as soon as I saw it and I have a pretty good idea why.
There is a quote from Martin Luther King junior, "The riot is the language of the unheard". While a petition isn't exactly a riot, you can see that when official channels for change are used and feel like they are useless, people don't stop seeking change. Jarle obviously feels unheard by PP and I certainly don't blame him as I feel the same. PP seems to have identified with 1 side of the debate before it happened and it leaves those of us very opposed to limitations on pre-measuring left in the dust with no official channels for change.
Calling Jarle or the petition stupid is taking a particularly aggressive stance on the moral issue that premeasuring has been turned into. If you want limits to premeasuring then argue for it. But don't act like a jerk and say that people looking for change are stupid, or juvenile or any of the other names in the 2 posts above me at least. Prove to them why they are wrong and de-escalate the ad hominem.
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Post by mikethefish on Apr 29, 2017 19:06:54 GMT
So there's a lot to unpack in that statement, OM, but I don't have the time for it at the moment.
One thing I would like to make time for is this...
Remember not too long ago when Sean Spicer made a huge blunder by making a Hitler comparison? In a similar vein, maybe let's not take something a revered civil rights icon said about the human condition, and compare it to a ridiculous situation about a game that involves pushing little toy dollies around a table. You're not helping your cause
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 29, 2017 20:27:13 GMT
Here is the thing. I signed the petition as soon as I saw it and I have a pretty good idea why. There is a quote from Martin Luther King junior, "The riot is the language of the unheard". Also from the context: "I'm absolutely convinced that a riot merely intensifies the fears of the white community while relieving the guilt." Riots are never a good idea.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Apr 29, 2017 20:42:49 GMT
Yeah I heard about this petition, but hadn't actally witnessed it until now. This has to be one of the most ridiculous and juvenile things that PP players have ever attempted. This is happening. PP has good reasons for doing this. It's a good thing for the game (assuming the CID can come up with an acceptable wording). This ludicrous attempt to bully PP into aquiescing on this issue makes me marvel at the inflated egos of some of this game's players. Wait wat? I would have thought the people who play tabletop wargames would be internet savvy enough to know online petitions to know they never work.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Apr 29, 2017 22:38:31 GMT
So there's a lot to unpack in that statement, OM, but I don't have the time for it at the moment. One thing I would like to make time for is this... Remember not too long ago when Sean Spicer made a huge blunder by making a Hitler comparison? In a similar vein, maybe let's not take something a revered civil rights icon said about the human condition, and compare it to a ridiculous situation about a game that involves pushing little toy dollies around a table. You're not helping your cause Yeah, I guess quoting things that people say is ridiculous. No, stop being foolish and 'revering' things when you could be learning from them. Reverence misses the point entirely.
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