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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 29, 2019 0:15:52 GMT
Well you start to get a feel of people's personality after a while, sand20go plays a lot in the SoCal meta and is totally traumatised by Railless in crucible guard jdeckert is always right, and has always been right for what is it now? Close to a decade? More than that? @micheal is always joking, he is even funny sometimes Oh, ok, fine so now I’m jealous. Sand and catman get stereotypes, but what about me, borderprince, and hocestbellum?!? What are we, chump change?
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Post by borderprince on Aug 29, 2019 3:36:40 GMT
Oh, ok, fine so now I’m jealous. Sand and catman get stereotypes, but what about me, borderprince , and hocestbellum ?!? What are we, chump change? We must be enigmatic.
Or unpredictable.
Or forgettable.
Just pick something that makes you feel good. Don't let him define you!
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Post by steeltitan on Aug 29, 2019 6:59:41 GMT
Well...that derailed quickly.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 29, 2019 10:14:26 GMT
Well...that derailed quickly. Well, yes. We already covered Sand’s obsession with the railless.
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Post by auraco on Aug 29, 2019 14:03:32 GMT
Right back at you with some salt...... Going to go from Macro to Micro points..... A) As Chickenslayer/Loud Chris points out - the only meta that matters is YOUR meta (or the meta you care about). So understand that some of this is irrelevent if you are teching against a lot of peh peh shooting (aka THAT is the gunline) or that for whatever reason someone at your LGS is still playing Cygnar and a bunch of gun mages. That is the first grain of salt you should keep in mind. B) Clouds: Yes. Most things have cloud removal/mitigation strategies - either in one or both lists. In the case of CG not only do they have Alyce who can give out Guidance they also have the Retaliator - who can be given guidance itself if it need be or, in most cases, just spray down their own model to remove clouds. Retribution with G2 has Mage site and with Issyria has her feat. Menoth will have Rhoven. EVERYONE now has an objective in 50% of scenarios which hands out eyeless site. It just is incompetence to bring a list whose principal win condition is shooting to not be able to largely mitigate clouds. C) Dispel/Purification/Blessed. Again, what defeats gunlines? Things that let folks stack armor or defense or both. You bring tools to stop them. If Syvestro can take out a chunk of MoW of COURSE he is using his FREE purify to do that. Since likely turn 2 he doesn't NEED to cast superfuel. Any challenges to order of activation with transmutation, if present, are not that hard to deal with or at least require S3 to have things (rough terrain generation) which are not USUALLY in her kit (aka you probably didn't take a Victor and if you did you probably are shooting fire and not Rough terrain. Another gun line I see a BUNCH is Circle and those WoldWyrds LOVE to see Shocks with IF. as they leverage ROF3 to get off 2 big shots at 4D6. Even better with Geomancy because I am going to start by TK'ing them out of Shield wall as well as screwing with your cloud wall's effectiveness. Good times! The upside of this is that EVERYTHING in the game dies. It is just a question of whether ARM 23 on a unit with POW 14 weapons which S3 can not tune up to hit harder is worth expending X amount of resources. We could debate ENDLESSLY but the point is that most CURRENT gunlines are sorta "meh" about that and are built to deal with decent ARM. D) Specific to the GC/S3 matchup. What would happen in said matchup seems trivially easy to predict. Assuming best case (for Khador), a Trancer runs to the correct position, A Halbies go next and do whatever they need to do. Lets assume they are getting value out of Tranmutation so it was upkept. Retailator then sprays to remove 2 clouds (best case - he often can shoot on an angle and get three). Alyce gives DBR guidance. Syvestro then moves up to catch one of the Shocks, casts a free Purify, and feats. He then recasts Transmutation and is sitting on 4 focus. 2 if he needs to recast Admo for some reason. DBR next and tags the Shocks at Dice -5 (withering) under S&P. Next up Railless(s) at Dice minus -5 on the ice sprays (after figuring in Withering) ; the rocket shot at Dice-4 and the fire at Dice -7 all under S&P. Easily Repos out of threat range of your MoW (11 inches) or jacks (either 10 or 11). He now has easily "cheated the trade" - keeping his big ticket items safe, leaving you no way in S3's kit to get rid of transmutation and still out threatening you. And, lets be honest, depending on the board state and what you have done you have now "blown" your once a game feat and still are plodding along with minimal (depending on build) way of efficiently chewing through halbies in an army that like to bunch up (shield wall, Atlanta's bubble, flank) against an army (GC Double railless) that LOVES to see an opponent bunch up.E) Cocks are actually pretty good into Wolves because of both the placement effect, the healing and the animus to reduce their speed. It is generally a "fair" match up. And again, doesn't care about your stinking cloud wall (eyeless)F) I would LOVE s3 to work. But I found that in a world of sprays it just isn't happening. IF alone on 1 unit of shocks ins't getting it done. Relying just on the Kovnik makes them too slow to get back to where they need to be. CTR 6 on a caster whose best thing is flank is really constraining in the new kit and ultimately if cloud wallls ARE a thing you simply back off - staying scenario relevant enough to then just spray down the army the following turn. (BTW - I think where S3 works FAR better is as a counter not to gunlines but to single wound WM - leveraging the clouds for the autopoint.G) Zerkova1 solves many of these problems. The Cloud wall is doing double duty. Not only does it offer an approach solver (if you opponent obliged like Auraco's by not bringing tools) but the -2 to hit helps a lot when stacked with things with decent defense (aka not likely Manofwars). Her feat shuts down sprays. Hex blast deals with pesky things like Transmutation _IF_ you can follow it up effectively. And her kit gets even better in Flames - with Vengeance, a great stacking of Morrow models with the archon, access to an arc note to keep some opportunities for assassination alive. Bonus points for being cold immune and thus able to weather out SOME of CG's sprays. To me it is, in the world of sprays she is the place to look. Once we get the Void Archon Rules (and Legion of Lost SOuls and the new Morrow units) we will be able to make a more informed choice on whether to build in Flames or Wolves and how that, in turn, impacts other lists.
OK. All for now....onto my real job ;-) Some answers here: A) He's not wrong about planning on the meta you care about, it clearly depends on where and when you play, I play most of my warmachine games in conventions through out the Québec meta, the southern Ontario meta and the New England meta, it's why I prefer to have general answers rather than focusing on that one list that one player will play. It clearly tends to color my view of the game. B)Clouds are not a complete shutdown of most list, that being said most list that have cloud mitigation tech don't have a way to completely ignore them, sure a menoth list with roven and co will have one model that ignores clouds, the clouds still protect you from a lot of the army, Garryth2 has mage sight, but mage sight doesn't affect the tridents, do you get what I mean when I say the clouds still help? Against crucible guard, the retaliator can only remove so many clouds, it's still possible to cover part of your army from it, it will restrict where the debuffing rockets will land. Not ideal to lose clouds from a feat to a light jack, but it doesn't make the feat worthless, it still makes Sorscha3 a better caster against gunlines than casters with no anti shooting tech. C) It's still about a trade of ressources that can give you an edge, yes Syvestro might take the free purification and set his upkeep again after that, but it's still a better trade for us than if playing a caster that can't force that number of things out of Syvestro. To bring it to the simpler example I can give, if you play B3 against that kind of list (something I would no recommend, Butcher3 is terrible into gunlines) Syvestro just doesn't have to use the purification and can do what he wants with his focus since he won't be removing his upkeeps either, it's not perfect for Sorscha3, you'll still struggle, because we struggle with gunlines in general, but it still way better than if you were playing butcher3, meaning the match up might not be what we call good, but it's clearly better than most of the alternative. As for playing Man O war into what I'm assuming is a kruger2 list with the Shrimps, Man o war are terrible into kruger2, rebukke shuts them down and TK means it's very easy for him to ignore shields, not something you want. In pretty much all my pairing if I see kruger2 I drop my list that isn't man o war. Something like Vlad2 Wolves is actually not that bad into kruger2 bones, not an easy match up, but there's a game to be had. D) I haven't played the specific match up of S3 into Syvestro, your analysis show him commiting a lot of point to kill the shocktroopers, and most of them will probably die, but as you said, everything dies in this game, if you throw enough points and a feat at it, I'm pretty sure even with the math you've done it still leaves some of the shocktroopers alive, and it also means your jacks and tankers are mostly untouched here, Strike tankers are pretty brutal into railless, not sure exactly what your list is, but mine has 2 strike tankers. Since the theme force dump I've also been thinking about including a destroyer in my Sorscha3 list, it can help deal with trancers, rockets and the retaliator. Again not perfect, but as I keep saying, we struggle into gunlines, it's why you have such PTSD about the list, it's not something into which we can tech easily. We tend to have bad options and worst options. E) Yeah Clockatrixs are not bad into wolves, but it's pretty much the only thing in the grymkin list that is good against a wolves list. I've played the match up against WTC grymkin players a couple of times, with clocks in their list and easily came out on top each time with Vlad2, Clocks are annoying, but wolves is well equipped to deal with them, the fact that your hitting power come from a lot of small units instead of a few big models mean it's easy to make it stutter and then send something else to keep killing it. More on that point, yeah sure clocks are good into wolves, but if you look at grymkin they pretty much trash armored corps, they hit hard, they have an arcana that can prevent shield wall, the clocks have chain weapon. So you're either playing against clocks that are good into wolves and the rest of your army pretty much trashes him, or if you play armored corps, you play to his strenght because his entire army is good into your. The outriders are very problematic for grymkin, like if you play your cards right they can easily win you the game by themselves, the koldun lords and Vlad2's wind black if your playing him also help a lot in dealing with Clocks, their anti shooting tech is at it's best against short range shooting like the clocks shooting. If playing against grymkin, I don't have a problem taking my wolves list out even if they have clocks in their list. F) I like Sorscha3 because she helps more than most into gunlines, but her kit make her work into way more than that, as you've mentionned he cloud is great into weapon master spam, I've also found it easy to leverage her kit into bricky build and came out on top, she is very versatile and also help more than most into gunlines, she's clearly not the perfect gunline drop, but she's been working well enough for me so far. G) Zerkova sounds like a strong anti gunline caster, especially for the things your obsessed with Her feat is great in restricting stuff like railless and even retaliator cloud removal. I dislike her in wolves because the army tends to play too far and wide for her tech to protect it that much, but I'll be trying her in a man o war brick to see how it goes, and once all the key models are out for flames I'll likely switch to playing her in Flames, this list seems perfect for her fixing her weaknesses and if can be build to play into guns thanks to the high number of shield guard available and the different thing they bring to the table, the dragon's breath rockets are not much of a problem when you shield guard them into non living movels like the morrowan archon or the Galant. Are we salty enough?
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Post by auraco on Aug 29, 2019 14:05:37 GMT
Well you start to get a feel of people's personality after a while, sand20go plays a lot in the SoCal meta and is totally traumatised by Railless in crucible guard jdeckert is always right, and has always been right for what is it now? Close to a decade? More than that? @micheal is always joking, he is even funny sometimes Oh, ok, fine so now I’m jealous. Sand and catman get stereotypes, but what about me, borderprince , and hocestbellum ?!? What are we, chump change? Asking for it is trying too hard, your time will come, but not when you ask for it. It's like choosing a nickname, you don't force it, at some point it just happens.
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Post by auraco on Aug 29, 2019 14:07:18 GMT
It’s either that or stare into the black gaping maw of futile oblivion that awaits us all, and for which this game is but a brief distraction as we imperceptibly slide into the grave. Also I frequently make incredibly insightful comments on tactics and strategy, but usually it takes about 18 months for everybody else to come around to that point of view, and by that point I don’t have the energy to bother saying “ I told you so.” So there’s that. It's probably a good thing that you don't bother saying it, nobody likes a smartass, or so I've been told... multiple times... But as long as you know it deep down, that's all that's important
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Post by michael on Aug 29, 2019 16:18:10 GMT
It’s either that or stare into the black gaping maw of futile oblivion that awaits us all, and for which this game is but a brief distraction as we imperceptibly slide into the grave. Also I frequently make incredibly insightful comments on tactics and strategy, but usually it takes about 18 months for everybody else to come around to that point of view, and by that point I don’t have the energy to bother saying “ I told you so.” So there’s that. It's probably a good thing that you don't bother saying it, nobody likes a smartass, or so I've been told... multiple times... But as long as you know it deep down, that's all that's important No, the important thing would be for people to listen to me so that we're not kneecapping the faction for the next 5 years every time there's a CID and I say "go left" but other people insist on swerving right.
Grumble. Grumble. Grumble.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 29, 2019 16:54:44 GMT
My main problem with Flames is needing to buy the models.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 29, 2019 17:03:50 GMT
Right back at you with some salt...... Going to go from Macro to Micro points..... A) As Chickenslayer/Loud Chris points out - the only meta that matters is YOUR meta (or the meta you care about). So understand that some of this is irrelevent if you are teching against a lot of peh peh shooting (aka THAT is the gunline) or that for whatever reason someone at your LGS is still playing Cygnar and a bunch of gun mages. That is the first grain of salt you should keep in mind. B) Clouds: Yes. Most things have cloud removal/mitigation strategies - either in one or both lists. In the case of CG not only do they have Alyce who can give out Guidance they also have the Retaliator - who can be given guidance itself if it need be or, in most cases, just spray down their own model to remove clouds. Retribution with G2 has Mage site and with Issyria has her feat. Menoth will have Rhoven. EVERYONE now has an objective in 50% of scenarios which hands out eyeless site. It just is incompetence to bring a list whose principal win condition is shooting to not be able to largely mitigate clouds. C) Dispel/Purification/Blessed. Again, what defeats gunlines? Things that let folks stack armor or defense or both. You bring tools to stop them. If Syvestro can take out a chunk of MoW of COURSE he is using his FREE purify to do that. Since likely turn 2 he doesn't NEED to cast superfuel. Any challenges to order of activation with transmutation, if present, are not that hard to deal with or at least require S3 to have things (rough terrain generation) which are not USUALLY in her kit (aka you probably didn't take a Victor and if you did you probably are shooting fire and not Rough terrain. Another gun line I see a BUNCH is Circle and those WoldWyrds LOVE to see Shocks with IF. as they leverage ROF3 to get off 2 big shots at 4D6. Even better with Geomancy because I am going to start by TK'ing them out of Shield wall as well as screwing with your cloud wall's effectiveness. Good times! The upside of this is that EVERYTHING in the game dies. It is just a question of whether ARM 23 on a unit with POW 14 weapons which S3 can not tune up to hit harder is worth expending X amount of resources. We could debate ENDLESSLY but the point is that most CURRENT gunlines are sorta "meh" about that and are built to deal with decent ARM. D) Specific to the GC/S3 matchup. What would happen in said matchup seems trivially easy to predict. Assuming best case (for Khador), a Trancer runs to the correct position, A Halbies go next and do whatever they need to do. Lets assume they are getting value out of Tranmutation so it was upkept. Retailator then sprays to remove 2 clouds (best case - he often can shoot on an angle and get three). Alyce gives DBR guidance. Syvestro then moves up to catch one of the Shocks, casts a free Purify, and feats. He then recasts Transmutation and is sitting on 4 focus. 2 if he needs to recast Admo for some reason. DBR next and tags the Shocks at Dice -5 (withering) under S&P. Next up Railless(s) at Dice minus -5 on the ice sprays (after figuring in Withering) ; the rocket shot at Dice-4 and the fire at Dice -7 all under S&P. Easily Repos out of threat range of your MoW (11 inches) or jacks (either 10 or 11). He now has easily "cheated the trade" - keeping his big ticket items safe, leaving you no way in S3's kit to get rid of transmutation and still out threatening you. And, lets be honest, depending on the board state and what you have done you have now "blown" your once a game feat and still are plodding along with minimal (depending on build) way of efficiently chewing through halbies in an army that like to bunch up (shield wall, Atlanta's bubble, flank) against an army (GC Double railless) that LOVES to see an opponent bunch up.E) Cocks are actually pretty good into Wolves because of both the placement effect, the healing and the animus to reduce their speed. It is generally a "fair" match up. And again, doesn't care about your stinking cloud wall (eyeless)F) I would LOVE s3 to work. But I found that in a world of sprays it just isn't happening. IF alone on 1 unit of shocks ins't getting it done. Relying just on the Kovnik makes them too slow to get back to where they need to be. CTR 6 on a caster whose best thing is flank is really constraining in the new kit and ultimately if cloud wallls ARE a thing you simply back off - staying scenario relevant enough to then just spray down the army the following turn. (BTW - I think where S3 works FAR better is as a counter not to gunlines but to single wound WM - leveraging the clouds for the autopoint.G) Zerkova1 solves many of these problems. The Cloud wall is doing double duty. Not only does it offer an approach solver (if you opponent obliged like Auraco's by not bringing tools) but the -2 to hit helps a lot when stacked with things with decent defense (aka not likely Manofwars). Her feat shuts down sprays. Hex blast deals with pesky things like Transmutation _IF_ you can follow it up effectively. And her kit gets even better in Flames - with Vengeance, a great stacking of Morrow models with the archon, access to an arc note to keep some opportunities for assassination alive. Bonus points for being cold immune and thus able to weather out SOME of CG's sprays. To me it is, in the world of sprays she is the place to look. Once we get the Void Archon Rules (and Legion of Lost SOuls and the new Morrow units) we will be able to make a more informed choice on whether to build in Flames or Wolves and how that, in turn, impacts other lists.
OK. All for now....onto my real job ;-) Some answers here: A) He's not wrong about planning on the meta you care about, it clearly depends on where and when you play, I play most of my warmachine games in conventions through out the Québec meta, the southern Ontario meta and the New England meta, it's why I prefer to have general answers rather than focusing on that one list that one player will play. It clearly tends to color my view of the game. B)Clouds are not a complete shutdown of most list, that being said most list that have cloud mitigation tech don't have a way to completely ignore them, sure a menoth list with roven and co will have one model that ignores clouds, the clouds still protect you from a lot of the army, Garryth2 has mage sight, but mage sight doesn't affect the tridents, do you get what I mean when I say the clouds still help? Against crucible guard, the retaliator can only remove so many clouds, it's still possible to cover part of your army from it, it will restrict where the debuffing rockets will land. Not ideal to lose clouds from a feat to a light jack, but it doesn't make the feat worthless, it still makes Sorscha3 a better caster against gunlines than casters with no anti shooting tech. C) It's still about a trade of ressources that can give you an edge, yes Syvestro might take the free purification and set his upkeep again after that, but it's still a better trade for us than if playing a caster that can't force that number of things out of Syvestro. To bring it to the simpler example I can give, if you play B3 against that kind of list (something I would no recommend, Butcher3 is terrible into gunlines) Syvestro just doesn't have to use the purification and can do what he wants with his focus since he won't be removing his upkeeps either, it's not perfect for Sorscha3, you'll still struggle, because we struggle with gunlines in general, but it still way better than if you were playing butcher3, meaning the match up might not be what we call good, but it's clearly better than most of the alternative. As for playing Man O war into what I'm assuming is a kruger2 list with the Shrimps, Man o war are terrible into kruger2, rebukke shuts them down and TK means it's very easy for him to ignore shields, not something you want. In pretty much all my pairing if I see kruger2 I drop my list that isn't man o war. Something like Vlad2 Wolves is actually not that bad into kruger2 bones, not an easy match up, but there's a game to be had. D) I haven't played the specific match up of S3 into Syvestro, your analysis show him commiting a lot of point to kill the shocktroopers, and most of them will probably die, but as you said, everything dies in this game, if you throw enough points and a feat at it, I'm pretty sure even with the math you've done it still leaves some of the shocktroopers alive, and it also means your jacks and tankers are mostly untouched here, Strike tankers are pretty brutal into railless, not sure exactly what your list is, but mine has 2 strike tankers. Since the theme force dump I've also been thinking about including a destroyer in my Sorscha3 list, it can help deal with trancers, rockets and the retaliator. Again not perfect, but as I keep saying, we struggle into gunlines, it's why you have such PTSD about the list, it's not something into which we can tech easily. We tend to have bad options and worst options. E) Yeah Clockatrixs are not bad into wolves, but it's pretty much the only thing in the grymkin list that is good against a wolves list. I've played the match up against WTC grymkin players a couple of times, with clocks in their list and easily came out on top each time with Vlad2, Clocks are annoying, but wolves is well equipped to deal with them, the fact that your hitting power come from a lot of small units instead of a few big models mean it's easy to make it stutter and then send something else to keep killing it. More on that point, yeah sure clocks are good into wolves, but if you look at grymkin they pretty much trash armored corps, they hit hard, they have an arcana that can prevent shield wall, the clocks have chain weapon. So you're either playing against clocks that are good into wolves and the rest of your army pretty much trashes him, or if you play armored corps, you play to his strenght because his entire army is good into your. The outriders are very problematic for grymkin, like if you play your cards right they can easily win you the game by themselves, the koldun lords and Vlad2's wind black if your playing him also help a lot in dealing with Clocks, their anti shooting tech is at it's best against short range shooting like the clocks shooting. If playing against grymkin, I don't have a problem taking my wolves list out even if they have clocks in their list. F) I like Sorscha3 because she helps more than most into gunlines, but her kit make her work into way more than that, as you've mentionned he cloud is great into weapon master spam, I've also found it easy to leverage her kit into bricky build and came out on top, she is very versatile and also help more than most into gunlines, she's clearly not the perfect gunline drop, but she's been working well enough for me so far. G) Zerkova sounds like a strong anti gunline caster, especially for the things your obsessed with Her feat is great in restricting stuff like railless and even retaliator cloud removal. I dislike her in wolves because the army tends to play too far and wide for her tech to protect it that much, but I'll be trying her in a man o war brick to see how it goes, and once all the key models are out for flames I'll likely switch to playing her in Flames, this list seems perfect for her fixing her weaknesses and if can be build to play into guns thanks to the high number of shield guard available and the different thing they bring to the table, the dragon's breath rockets are not much of a problem when you shield guard them into non living movels like the morrowan archon or the Galant. Are we salty enough? Interestingly, the DC would be Def 14 against Charges/Melee if you had an archon right behind a Zerkova piloted AC list. Given synergies with her spells no real reason to bring an armor debuffer (though nice). It is sorta an "interim" until/if all your stuff for Flames is bought and ready to use.
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Post by jdeckert on Aug 29, 2019 22:12:35 GMT
No, the important thing would be for people to listen to me so that we're not kneecapping the faction for the next 5 years every time there's a CID and I say "go left" but other people insist on swerving right.
Grumble. Grumble. Grumble.
I still find your attitude on the Wolves CID super insulting. This right here is the equivalent of saying "I told you so," because you bring it up frequently. The reason you can't say "I told you so" isn't because you "don't have the energy," or else you'd stop dredging this up. The reason you can't say "I told you so" is because you were wrong on this one.
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Post by michael on Aug 29, 2019 22:28:14 GMT
No, the important thing would be for people to listen to me so that we're not kneecapping the faction for the next 5 years every time there's a CID and I say "go left" but other people insist on swerving right.
Grumble. Grumble. Grumble.
I still find your attitude on the Wolves CID super insulting. This right here is the equivalent of saying "I told you so," because you bring it up frequently. The reason you can't say "I told you so" isn't because you "don't have the energy," or else you'd stop dredging this up. The reason you can't say "I told you so" is because you were wrong on this one. Note that I said it takes about 18 months for people to catch up to me. Just wait about 8-10 more months. We’re not there yet. Alternatively, with sarcasm: Yes, because more flexibility in an army is definitely worse than less flexibility. Double alternatively: I would argue that “I only take these models because they are free, and even then they are like my second or third choice” is probably not indicative of the models being good. Triple alternatron: *assorted fart noises* Alternatively IV, the Quest for Peace: Ad cum fugit dolore altera, has ne facete accusata definiebas.
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Post by steeltitan on Aug 30, 2019 8:08:13 GMT
My main problem with Flames is needing to buy the models. Yeah thats ny main reason for not having looked at it at all. If it would be our premier gunline drop, could someone who has a clue give a quick rundown of why (unless there isnt much more to it than 'zerkova 1') and what the list (roughly) would be?
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Aug 30, 2019 10:41:59 GMT
My main problem with Flames is needing to buy the models. Yeah thats ny main reason for not having looked at it at all. If it would be our premier gunline drop, could someone who has a clue give a quick rundown of why (unless there isnt much more to it than 'zerkova 1') and what the list (roughly) would be? *clears throat* Welcome to my ted talk on why Lady Z Flames is the new shit. Please get out a pencil and paper and take notes because this is going to be important and you don't want to miss it. Lady Z is an expert deliverer and thus really likes melee troops. She doesn't have a damage fix, so she wants her troops to hit hard. She is a really good spellslinger and thus wants an arc node. She wants a quality warjack to put watcher on. Flames delivers on all of the above points. Precursors hit very hard in melee with their mini feat, but are very prone to simply beign shot of the board since their only defensive tech is Shield Wall. The Lancer or the Hurricane are both arc nodes, which is what she always wanted. Gallant or again the Hurricane are good to excellent Watcher targets. The Hurricane in particular has a gun that slams small and medium bases and knock down large ones. Additionally the theme is chalk full of damage fixers: The Hermit (also awesome for telemetry), Ragman, Gabriel Throne, and Alexia3 (albeit only for the legion of lost souls). Thus the fact that she doesn't have a damage fixer doesn't matter. Further more there's the Thamarite archon, we dont have the final rules on him, but his last iteration gave thamarites rerolls on attack rolls, which is great for a caster with good assassination potential. Finally, there's the Battle Priests... Battle Priests are 2 shield guard WA that can be added to any morrowan unit. This means you can reliably have 7 Shield Guards at the beginning of the game (3 on two units, the Morrowan Archon is the 7th), which is something unheard of in Khador, because we have to pay 10 points for a rager, or 5 points for Sofya in LegoS. This plus her cloud wall and her feat should reliably weather off most attempts at shooting the list down. But wait there's more! The theme grants all units in theme Vengeance, so when ever a battle priest shield guards something, the entire unit gets to move 3" and whack something. The priest also grants rise to his unit and Gabriel Throne most likely will have a Battle Plan to make any unit tough. That's a Tough/Rise/Vengeance combo that punishes any shooting that does come through Lady Z's layers of anti shooting tech. And finally there is the fact that said Battle Priests ARE RECURRABLE. The legion of lost souls has blood bound and Alexia3 has passive necromancy, which turns any fallen model into a thrall warrior. He elite cadre then turns the thrall inot a shield guard, meaning you can have the same model shield guard twice during the enemy turn (just note that Passive Necromancy RFPs, so keep track of which priests you want to turn into thralls and which the Legion should bloodbind back.) He is my propose list based on the rundown above: conflictchamber.com/?c3201b_-1J7bf6oQoToRoKoIoMo_p2oEp2oFKhador [Theme] Flame in the Darkness !!! This army contains pre-release entries. !!! This army contains CID entries. [Zerkova 1] Koldun Kommander Aleksandra Zerkova [+28] - Hurricane [35] Alexia, The Undying [0(5)] Grand Master Gabriel Throne [7] Hermit of Henge Hold [5] Morrowan Archon [8] Ragman [4] Thamarite Archon [8] Legion of Lost Souls (max) [18] - Morrowan Battle Priest (3) [0(6)] Precursor Knights (max) [14] - Morrowan Battle Priest (3) [0(6)] - Precursor Knight Officer & Standard [4] Thank you for listening to my Ted Talk!
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 30, 2019 11:22:18 GMT
Yeah thats ny main reason for not having looked at it at all. If it would be our premier gunline drop, could someone who has a clue give a quick rundown of why (unless there isnt much more to it than 'zerkova 1') and what the list (roughly) would be? *clears throat* Welcome to my ted talk on why Lady Z Flames is the new shit. Please get out a pencil and paper and take notes because this is going to be important and you don't want to miss it. Lady Z is an expert deliverer and thus really likes melee troops. She doesn't have a damage fix, so she wants her troops to hit hard. She is a really good spellslinger and thus wants an arc node. She wants a quality warjack to put watcher on. Flames delivers on all of the above points. Precursors hit very hard in melee with their mini feat, but are very prone to simply beign shot of the board since their only defensive tech is Shield Wall. The Lancer or the Hurricane are both arc nodes, which is what she always wanted. Gallant or again the Hurricane are good to excellent Watcher targets. The Hurricane in particular has a gun that slams small and medium bases and knock down large ones. Additionally the theme is chalk full of damage fixers: The Hermit (also awesome for telemetry), Ragman, Gabriel Throne, and Alexia3 (albeit only for the legion of lost souls). Thus the fact that she doesn't have a damage fixer doesn't matter. Further more there's the Thamarite archon, we dont have the final rules on him, but his last iteration gave thamarites rerolls on attack rolls, which is great for a caster with good assassination potential. Finally, there's the Battle Priests... Battle Priests are 2 shield guard WA that can be added to any morrowan unit. This means you can reliably have 7 Shield Guards at the beginning of the game (3 on two units, the Morrowan Archon is the 7th), which is something unheard of in Khador, because we have to pay 10 points for a rager, or 5 points for Sofya in LegoS. This plus her cloud wall and her feat should reliably weather off most attempts at shooting the list down. But wait there's more! The theme grants all units in theme Vengeance, so when ever a battle priest shield guards something, the entire unit gets to move 3" and whack something. The priest also grants rise to his unit and Gabriel Throne most likely will have a Battle Plan to make any unit tough. That's a Tough/Rise/Vengeance combo that punishes any shooting that does come through Lady Z's layers of anti shooting tech. And finally there is the fact that said Battle Priests ARE RECURRABLE. The legion of lost souls has blood bound and Alexia3 has passive necromancy, which turns any fallen model into a thrall warrior. He elite cadre then turns the thrall inot a shield guard, meaning you can have the same model shield guard twice during the enemy turn (just note that Passive Necromancy RFPs, so keep track of which priests you want to turn into thralls and which the Legion should bloodbind back.) He is my propose list based on the rundown above: conflictchamber.com/?c3201b_-1J7bf6oQoToRoKoIoMo_p2oEp2oFKhador [Theme] Flame in the Darkness !!! This army contains pre-release entries. !!! This army contains CID entries. [Zerkova 1] Koldun Kommander Aleksandra Zerkova [+28] - Hurricane [35] Alexia, The Undying [0(5)] Grand Master Gabriel Throne [7] Hermit of Henge Hold [5] Morrowan Archon [8] Ragman [4] Thamarite Archon [8] Legion of Lost Souls (max) [18] - Morrowan Battle Priest (3) [0(6)] Precursor Knights (max) [14] - Morrowan Battle Priest (3) [0(6)] - Precursor Knight Officer & Standard [4] Thank you for listening to my Ted Talk! Nice. It makes my brain hurt to think through all that tech. It’ll make my wallet hurt worse to buy all those new models. In your list, I only own Z1 and 2 solos. I also hate playing unpainted and have a small backlog now including my new Judicator hotness for Vlad. I also usually refuse to play with unbuilt models. 😏 Occasionally I’ll use a proxy but that’s generally frowned upon at tournaments.
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