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Post by auraco on Aug 27, 2019 18:32:54 GMT
Yeah, that was my knee-jerk reaction to the WGK changes since the theme doesn't do anything for 'jacks anymore. I can see Vlad1 working with his feat being strictly better than the advance move that the 'jacks lost. That said, I really don't like Vlad1 so it's back to the drawing board for me Maybe I'll look for some morrowan stuff. Of course, Vlad1 with 'jacks and shooting is still a totally reasonable answer to my question - just personal bias. We don't have a ton of option to deal with shooting sadly, without dipping in our new theme that can field a lot of cheap shield guard it's hard to tech against shooting with defensive tech. That leaves the other option when dealing with shooting, just being overly agressive and outdamage the other guy, say what you will of Vlad1, but he's one of our best bet for that kind of play.
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Post by steeltitan on Aug 27, 2019 20:02:36 GMT
If i wasnt playing against CG (sprays) all the time, Id consider OW2...maybe thats worth looking at for you. I think she can play well in most themes and help mitigate damage vs shooting.
Are you looking for something vs a specific matchup?
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Post by sand20go on Aug 27, 2019 22:24:13 GMT
If i wasnt playing against CG (sprays) all the time, Id consider OW2...maybe thats worth looking at for you. I think she can play well in most themes and help mitigate damage vs shooting. Are you looking for something vs a specific matchup? I still think OW2 wolves is worth exploring against CG (Juris disagrees or at least is cautionary). 1) Windstorm helps mitigate both the DBR and the unboostable Railess big gun. 2) With relatively cost efficient Ternions you can cloud up a fair amount of stuff getting to DEF 15 concealment. This isn't saving ANYONE under Sevestro's feat but can save them (with 1) before the feat cause they will need 9s (7s aiming) to hit. Those are not bad initial odds 3) Greylords are all cold immune and the fire sprays is within the Koldun lord's "No shooting" bubble. Bad things A) No hills. A concealed Koldun lord on a hill sounds better than most things. Alas, not to be. B) Because of superfuel most sevestro lists are fast. In a pinch (aka I can't spray down your entire army....yet.... a decent CG will simply send a light jack or an arc node into the Koldun lord and kill his very squishy 13/13 5 boxes beared face. C) You have a HUGE base model that is easy to hit and is vulnerable to debuffs from DBRs once they close. DEF 12 is not saving her from anything. Her individual power is not that great (Pow 15 at Mat5). D) She is highly vulnerable (see def 12) to the Locke matchup and just getting a Toro or a Vulcan under jackhammer run at her and then 6 of them cast to put her into the mud. E) She can't cast BC on doomies and thus her threat range is fairly limited...so you really have to weather out the shooting - some of which may be outside your bubble. Like I said - not an obvious choice one way or the other. Now Zerkova1 in Flames feels "better". Vengenance on a unit that can minifeat its way into hitting at the same power as Doomreavers fells. well...good. Precursors with UA are nearly inditical to doomies for cost - and have vengenance in theme. They synergize with the Archon to improve defense. She can bring better watcher targets and of course an arc node....and potentially better solos. We haven't even talked about (cause no rules) legion of lost souls for the recursion. TO me it is Z1. Hell....I might talk myself into trying her with Ruin and Wolves to see if I can make her work again.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 28, 2019 0:52:17 GMT
Guys...forgive me on this.
But...
If you really want to be protected against guns, why aren’t we talking about Harkevich? With the new themes, what crazy jack heavy build gets him tricked out to take it all on? He weathers their guns.
Also, shouldn’t we be talking Strakhov 1 with 5+ jacks. He runs right past their guns.
And shoot, Karchev with 8 heavies always liked a good gun fight? He laughs at their guns.
It’s not like we don’t have tools to weather the storm.
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Post by auraco on Aug 28, 2019 1:02:43 GMT
Guys...forgive me on this. But... If you really want to be protected against guns, why aren’t we talking about Harkevich? With the new themes, what crazy jack heavy build gets him tricked out to take it all on? He weathers their guns. Also, shouldn’t we be talking Strakhov 1 with 5+ jacks. He runs right past their guns. And shoot, Karchev with 8 heavies always liked a good gun fight? He laughs at their guns. It’s not like we don’t have tools to weather the storm. Has harkevich ever worked into guns? He's super easy to kite and historically has never really worked into... well anything, sorry I hate Harkevich, but history is on my side about him not really delivering on the table, guns or no guns on the other side of the table. Strakhov, him I've played a lot, and he likes premium jacks, but our premium jacks are just as easy to kill as our non premium jacks so he doesn't like losing pieces to guns before doing his thing. The way his feat works with the enemy needing to be in his control is actually super risky, he needs to be super forward to actually speed up his stuff up to Vlad1's level of speed, but need to be way more exposed. The new pathfinder everywhere on the jacks in jaws is cool, but it doesn't make him a gunline drop, I'd argue that he's one of our weakest casters into guns. Karchev, haven't played him, but I think he's the best bet on the list you've given us, he can camp without slowing down his army (harkevich style because mobility cost half his stack) and he can tank a lot with his face. Not sure I'd call him a gunline drop, but him with a lot of juggy and maraudeur might be the best jaws option into gunlines, short of maybe OW2. I don't think jaws in general is that great into gunlines, it's way too melee centric to work, it just reacts to getting shot. That's why I think armored corps is our regular theme (by regular I mean on that all our caster can play) that can play the best into gunlines, it's pretty tanky, and it has guns to actually shoot back, probably not as much as the other side, but enough to take out a couple of key pieces to receive less shot in return. Add a caster with some tech that helps against shooting like Sorscha3, Zerkova1, OW2 or even maybe Strakhov2 and you start getting something that can play into gunlines. Maybe not optimal play, we still struggle with gunlines, but it can play better than the rest of khador can, because it has tools to react other than, I'll just power through the shooting, which doesn't work very well for us.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 28, 2019 1:44:46 GMT
auraco, you make good points. Anyway, my leading with Harkevich is clickbait. I would actually *play* him or anything! Anyway, more to the point, I’ve never felt like I’ve been sorely lacking for gunline drops. In terms of stuff I actually have played against dedicated gunlines in the past year: Vlad 1 with a bunch of jacks works great. Already posted on that. Sorscha 3 in Armored Korps works fine as well. ARM 20-23 across the board and a round of clouds. Karchev in Jaws worked before and got better. He doesn’t want or need premium jacks, so can drop 8 without breaking a sweat. OW2 in just about anything is fine, although sprays are annoying...but most of them aren’t more than SP10. Again, bring jacks. I’ve also dropped: Strakhov 1 with 7 units of doomreavers. I’m not sure I’d recommend it, but damn it’s fun as hell and it *can* work. Butcher 3 in WGK. I think I like Vlad 1 better here if the guns are dedicated. Haven’t tried him into GC. Not sure I want to, but I want to want to because I really like Butcher.
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Post by auraco on Aug 28, 2019 2:20:32 GMT
Yeah that Hark comment was clickbait, but not nearly as much as your comment about B3 WGK against gunlines, it's going to get me ranting Butcher3 winterguard kommand is NOT a gunline drop, not by a longshot. It's the list I've played the most in mk3, and yeah, it's a build to play against melee, I came up with my list (RIP my Butcher3 WGK list, we had a good run) with Grymkin and Cryx (remember when Cryx was the scary monster and ghost fleet was something we needed to tech against). The few times I played it against dedicated gunlines it just folded. Against melee list you can control where to apply Butcher and stay out of retaliation range. I found that a lot of the time it's better to advance 5 and impending doom hit something and camp less than just charging forward and leaving yourself exposed to stuff that can actually kill Butcher. That doesn't work against guns because most of the time they can get to you anyway, they can also just stay enough away from Butcher that he can't actually get them all. If you decide to play super aggressive and camp forward, well you're playing points down on your opponent by virtue of having only 22 jack points and you have absolutely no support, so between a gunline with support and a smaller force with no support, well it's not hard to do the math here. Ok rant over Other than that, yeah the list you've mentioned are our best bet into gunlines: -Vlad1 outagression the opposing gunline -Sorscha3 deny with feat, tank with iron flesh man o war, get your quick battlegroup into their line -Karchev jackspam, never played the list, but seems like he's the best at pushing jacks into gunlines if you want to go jaws, none of our other caster can really do it in jaws -OW2 depending on the build she can play a bit like Vlad1, but also offers defensive tech to her army, she can play a winterguard or armored corps gunline pretty well, but she can also run an melee centric wovles army like a boss, her kit not relying on buffing her own stuff means she can help pretty much anything be better.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 28, 2019 3:29:06 GMT
We should all work on solving zerkova 1
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Post by borderprince on Aug 28, 2019 5:19:55 GMT
We should all work on solving zerkova 1
Sorry, couldn't resist.
For Karchev, he can work into gunlines, but:
(1) Ideally you want to have models to trigger Road to War from early in game, so you get up the table. That means you need to make sure those models can't be easily sniped out by a dedicated gunline. That probably means a couple of ranged jacks.
(2) Much can depend on the type of gunline. A typical Karchev list isn't great into lists with lots of warrior models, simply due to low attack volumes.
And yes, Sorscha3 is fine.
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Post by steeltitan on Aug 28, 2019 7:03:20 GMT
I am intrigued by Sorscha 3.
I guess, as an all-rounder, you'd take Vlad 2 in AK so if you do decide to take S3 in your pair, it will generally be as your gunline drop?
Ive never even played AK.
What would you run? Double Shockies? Ive seen many lists with Demos but they dont seem very resilient and gunlines can likely just snipe them out?
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Post by borderprince on Aug 28, 2019 8:41:19 GMT
I am intrigued by Sorscha 3. I guess, as an all-rounder, you'd take Vlad 2 in AK so if you do decide to take S3 in your pair, it will generally be as your gunline drop? Ive never even played AK. What would you run? Double Shockies? Ive seen many lists with Demos but they dont seem very resilient and gunlines can likely just snipe them out? If I were running a Vlad2-Sorscha3 pair, it would be Vlad2 in Wolves and Sorscha3 in AK. Vlad2 in Wolves is a good list that can handle most things, but does not like gunlines. Sorscha3 can handle gunlines and high ARM lists (especially huge bases, if you include Marauders). She's also got more of a long game than Vlad2 in Wolves, which can lose steam after the feat and as losses mount amongst the Doomreavers.
As for what to run, I like double Shocktroopers and agree about the Demos being not very resilient. That said, I do sometimes include a min unit of Demo Corps. Sorscha3 can fairly reliable freeze a single model if you need it, which makes your Demo Corps weapon master equivalents. If you can freeze it, 3 Demo Corps can deal with a Juggernaut chassis jack on about average dice. But they're a reserve, not the core of the list, and certainly not a large points investment.
For me, the core of the list is double Shocktroopers with at least one Kovnik, Tankers and Ragman (doesn't just buff the Shocktroopers, but can use their 2" melee to spread the ARM debuff around so your jacks can benefit from it and Flank simultaneously). Jack load out and the rest is more flexible. Kodiaks and Marauders are both good when you add Flank to them. Kodiaks give some pathfinder, which the list is otherwise lacking.
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Post by steeltitan on Aug 28, 2019 11:24:21 GMT
War Room Army
Khador - S3 - AK - 75p
Theme: Armored Corps 75 / 75 Army
Kommandant Sorscha Kratikoff - WJ: +28 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4 - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2)
Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Strike Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Strike Tanker - PC: 5 Man-O-War Kovnik - PC: 4 Ragman - PC: 4
Man-O-War Shocktroopers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer - PC: 4 Man-O-War Shocktroopers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer - PC: 4 Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard - Arconovich & Standard Bearer: 7
Would this be a good setup versus Da Gunz?
Theres so many things Id like to fit in like Marauders for huge bases, Drakhuns for triggering flank, etc etc but man, are points tight.
Question is...do i really need three Kodiaks for cloud wall yolo?
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Post by sand20go on Aug 28, 2019 11:49:17 GMT
I am intrigued by Sorscha 3. I guess, as an all-rounder, you'd take Vlad 2 in AK so if you do decide to take S3 in your pair, it will generally be as your gunline drop? Ive never even played AK. What would you run? Double Shockies? Ive seen many lists with Demos but they dont seem very resilient and gunlines can likely just snipe them out? If I were running a Vlad2-Sorscha3 pair, it would be Vlad2 in Wolves and Sorscha3 in AK. Vlad2 in Wolves is a good list that can handle most things, but does not like gunlines. Sorscha3 can handle gunlines and high ARM lists (especially huge bases, if you include Marauders). She's also got more of a long game than Vlad2 in Wolves, which can lose steam after the feat and as losses mount amongst the Doomreavers.
As for what to run, I like double Shocktroopers and agree about the Demos being not very resilient. That said, I do sometimes include a min unit of Demo Corps. Sorscha3 can fairly reliable freeze a single model if you need it, which makes your Demo Corps weapon master equivalents. If you can freeze it, 3 Demo Corps can deal with a Juggernaut chassis jack on about average dice. But they're a reserve, not the core of the list, and certainly not a large points investment.
For me, the core of the list is double Shocktroopers with at least one Kovnik, Tankers and Ragman (doesn't just buff the Shocktroopers, but can use their 2" melee to spread the ARM debuff around so your jacks can benefit from it and Flank simultaneously). Jack load out and the rest is more flexible. Kodiaks and Marauders are both good when you add Flank to them. Kodiaks give some pathfinder, which the list is otherwise lacking.
I am not convinced S3 handles gunlines. Most gunline casters will have ways of getting around clouds. Why they are a "gun line". Many will have a means of dispelling the IF. So essentially you are running vanilla MoW into the teeth. Add in that with Sprays being the new Black you are either multiplying the volume of their shots or running just ARM 17. Will work fine into Gearheart or 90% of Cygnar. Will "suck" in to things like Railless or the Blockader or to a certain extent (more scenario play) the Cockatrice. No. It has to be Zerkova because if you want to shut down gunlines it needs to shut down, at least right now, high powered sprays.
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Post by michael on Aug 28, 2019 11:51:00 GMT
Sand, it’s like 4 AM for you. What are you doing posting on here? Go to bed.
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Post by michael on Aug 28, 2019 11:57:22 GMT
War Room Army Khador - S3 - AK - 75p Theme: Armored Corps 75 / 75 Army Kommandant Sorscha Kratikoff - WJ: +28 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4 - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2) Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Strike Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Strike Tanker - PC: 5 Man-O-War Kovnik - PC: 4 Ragman - PC: 4 Man-O-War Shocktroopers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer - PC: 4 Man-O-War Shocktroopers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer - PC: 4 Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard - Arconovich & Standard Bearer: 7 Would this be a good setup versus Da Gunz? Theres so many things Id like to fit in like Marauders for huge bases, Drakhuns for triggering flank, etc etc but man, are points tight. Question is...do i really need three Kodiaks for cloud wall yolo? I think switching maybe one Kodiak to a Marauder is sensible for huge base insurance. Don’t know what you’d do with the points, though.
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