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Post by jdeckert on Aug 25, 2019 20:38:22 GMT
What are you all running to counter gun lines these days? Jack-heavy WGK has been my go-to, but isn't really viable any more. Armored corps? Zerkova1 in the morrowan theme?
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 25, 2019 23:23:15 GMT
jdeckert , why don’t you think jack-heavy WGK is viable? I’ve been running Vlad 1 with either 5 jacks and 9 rockets, or 6 jacks and 6 rockets, with one of the Jacks marshaled by Sorscha 0, plus an Adjunct. I don’t find any part of that “not viable.” Anyway, I’m a sucker for good love stories and fully loaded jacks that threaten 14” - especially Marauders. A fully loaded Marauder with S&P, Boundless Charge, and 3 focus will independently kill most huge bases in the game and when you’re bringing 3 of them (both my 5 jack and 6 jack build start with 3 marauders), it’s really hard to defend against. Note: In the above Vlad lists, I haven’t been bringing a Gun Carraige. I think this is against conventional wisdom, but I’m not bringing Vlad 1 as my all comers drop (right now, that’s Wolves, but I’m itching to try Warriors OTOF with Vlad 3...I just got a Judicator as part of Grymkin/Menoth army swap), so I don’t feel like the GC adds much to what I want the list to do. I’d rather have another jack for the points. I might be wrong about this, but if so I think I’d probably drop a jack from the 6 jack build in order to still shoehorn in 6 rockets (and 2 scoring units) and 5 jacks (and it’s amazing that you can fit all that in...you can). My other go-to is Sorscha 3 with double Shocktroopers, 2 Marauders, 2 Kodiaks, Atanas, and all the tankers. Nothing says “I love you” to a gunline like (almost) everything in your army being ARM 20 and above. I can’t really comment on Zerkova - I don’t play her much. And I haven’t tired the Morrowan theme. That said, I’m not feeling at a disadvantage at all when I drop either of the above.
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Post by auraco on Aug 26, 2019 1:46:59 GMT
The gun carriage is very good, but if you want an anti gunline list, you're better off leaving it home and taking more jacks or rockets in your list.
I've been taking Sorscha3 Armored corps for a while, it's ok against gunlines, but I wouldn't call it better than OK. I've been trying an OW2 armored corps list for that, but haven't played it enough to conclude if it really works. Zerkova1 Flame in the dark seems like she could be our best anti gunline caster, but too many models required are not out yet for that list to actually work. The Battlepriest are incerdibly good for anti gunline list but they're not even on the release schedule yet.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 26, 2019 3:20:42 GMT
The gun carriage is very good, but if you want an anti gunline list, you're better off leaving it home and taking more jacks or rockets in your list. I've been taking Sorscha3 Armored corps for a while, it's ok against gunlines, but I wouldn't call it better than OK. I've been trying an OW2 armored corps list for that, but haven't played it enough to conclude if it really works. Zerkova1 Flame in the dark seems like she could be our best anti gunline caster, but too many models required are not out yet for that list to actually work. The Battlepriest are incerdibly good for anti gunline list but they're not even on the release schedule yet. Ahh....gunlines....how Khador HATES them ;-) Some ideas 1) Vlad 2 CAN play into them but you gotta use the pie plates of Nope to be massively irritating. You have to use Vlad, the pie plates and the things that he is protecting with an A game. It really takes practice and thinking and is really hard without going into the tank. 2) I agree with A' - Zerkova1 in Flames should be VERY good. Vengenance really helps. Lots of shield guards, ways of increasing the high def of stuff with already decent def. Etc. etc. etc. Need to see the rules for all the models to truly opine and the jack load out is one of interesting debate. 3) A dark horse (similar to vlad1 with rockets is to use Z2 with double ponies. BEFORE feat they threaten 17/19. With Feat really essentially unlimited. Hermit is LOVED in the list - not for the arm buff but more for telemetry. You get your Ternions to Magic Ability 9 and the Lord to 10. They will hit EVERYTHING. You can get a 6 ARM swing with A&H. But the problem is that it still really can't take out the BEs that currently anchor the best gunlines (Railless and the Dawnsled). 10 ponies with a -4 ARM swing STILL has a 30% chance of one-rounding the Dawnsled - and then he has 80 points of army left to obliterate the rest of your army. If you are comparing at home - 9 rockets under Vlad1 have a 58% of doing the deed on a Dawnsled.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Aug 26, 2019 15:51:18 GMT
The gun carriage is very good, but if you want an anti gunline list, you're better off leaving it home and taking more jacks or rockets in your list. I've been taking Sorscha3 Armored corps for a while, it's ok against gunlines, but I wouldn't call it better than OK. I've been trying an OW2 armored corps list for that, but haven't played it enough to conclude if it really works. Zerkova1 Flame in the dark seems like she could be our best anti gunline caster, but too many models required are not out yet for that list to actually work. The Battlepriest are incerdibly good for anti gunline list but they're not even on the release schedule yet. Ahh....gunlines....how Khador HATES them ;-) Some ideas 1) Vlad 2 CAN play into them but you gotta use the pie plates of Nope to be massively irritating. You have to use Vlad, the pie plates and the things that he is protecting with an A game. It really takes practice and thinking and is really hard without going into the tank. 2) I agree with A' - Zerkova1 in Flames should be VERY good. Vengenance really helps. Lots of shield guards, ways of increasing the high def of stuff with already decent def. Etc. etc. etc. Need to see the rules for all the models to truly opine and the jack load out is one of interesting debate. 3) A dark horse (similar to vlad1 with rockets is to use Z2 with double ponies. BEFORE feat they threaten 17/19. With Feat really essentially unlimited. Hermit is LOVED in the list - not for the arm buff but more for telemetry. You get your Ternions to Magic Ability 9 and the Lord to 10. They will hit EVERYTHING. You can get a 6 ARM swing with A&H. But the problem is that it still really can't take out the BEs that currently anchor the best gunlines (Railless and the Dawnsled). 10 ponies with a -4 ARM swing STILL has a 30% chance of one-rounding the Dawnsled - and then he has 80 points of army left to obliterate the rest of your army. If you are comparing at home - 9 rockets under Vlad1 have a 58% of doing the deed on a Dawnsled. Just keep in mind that the Hermit does not benefit from Zerkova's feat, so it only threats 13" for Telemetry (and only 10" for Whispers at the Gate).
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Post by sand20go on Aug 26, 2019 16:07:52 GMT
Ahh....gunlines....how Khador HATES them ;-) Some ideas 1) Vlad 2 CAN play into them but you gotta use the pie plates of Nope to be massively irritating. You have to use Vlad, the pie plates and the things that he is protecting with an A game. It really takes practice and thinking and is really hard without going into the tank. 2) I agree with A' - Zerkova1 in Flames should be VERY good. Vengenance really helps. Lots of shield guards, ways of increasing the high def of stuff with already decent def. Etc. etc. etc. Need to see the rules for all the models to truly opine and the jack load out is one of interesting debate. 3) A dark horse (similar to vlad1 with rockets is to use Z2 with double ponies. BEFORE feat they threaten 17/19. With Feat really essentially unlimited. Hermit is LOVED in the list - not for the arm buff but more for telemetry. You get your Ternions to Magic Ability 9 and the Lord to 10. They will hit EVERYTHING. You can get a 6 ARM swing with A&H. But the problem is that it still really can't take out the BEs that currently anchor the best gunlines (Railless and the Dawnsled). 10 ponies with a -4 ARM swing STILL has a 30% chance of one-rounding the Dawnsled - and then he has 80 points of army left to obliterate the rest of your army. If you are comparing at home - 9 rockets under Vlad1 have a 58% of doing the deed on a Dawnsled. Just keep in mind that the Hermit does not benefit from Zerkova's feat, so it only threats 13" for Telemetry (and only 10" for Whispers at the Gate). Knew that. I think his value comes during the turn before (or turns after depending on how much stuff is left). So, for example, you can use him behind a group of 6 ternions to tune their bonds of woe up to Magic ability 9 which hits many (most?) infantry in the game from 16/18 away (much further on feat). that MIGHT make a difference depending on everything because you could, for example, do those telemetry assisted magic spells - feat - and then cloud up. What isn't clear to me is that with just pew pew pow 12 magic shots in the faction (other than Z) and not much ranged output in faction or theme whether Wolves can make up in volume for what it will lack in power. The good news about hermit and telemetry is that it changes a few things in Z2's bag of tricks - allowing her to sometimes pass on casting Occult Whispers. PS - one of the more "interesting" ways of overcoming the low POW of the list (but still being at range) COULD be (not sure it works but it might) Marshaling a decimator to a Forgeseer. You could get up to POW 19 on that gun with easy to apply debuffs. Not SURE that is worth it but might be. Have to homebrew something up......
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Post by borderprince on Aug 27, 2019 4:50:18 GMT
jdeckert , why don’t you think jack-heavy WGK is viable? I’ve been running Vlad 1 with either 5 jacks and 9 rockets, or 6 jacks and 6 rockets, with one of the Jacks marshaled by Sorscha 0, plus an Adjunct. I don’t find any part of that “not viable.” Anyway, I’m a sucker for good love stories and fully loaded jacks that threaten 14” - especially Marauders. A fully loaded Marauder with S&P, Boundless Charge, and 3 focus will independently kill most huge bases in the game and when you’re bringing 3 of them (both my 5 jack and 6 jack build start with 3 marauders), it’s really hard to defend against. Another person wondering why Vlad1 WGK doesn't still work?
Massive rocket spam doesn't work that well, but a good mix of jacks and rockets that threat far does good work, while Sac Pawn for your caster is a nice theme benefit against quite a bit of shooting (not all, obviously).
I don't think the Gun Carriage is a liability in the match-up. It's not going to do as much as against a list that is trying to close the distance, but it's still something that moves fast and can be very disruptive, all with high ARM and boxes. I've been trying two of them recently and that + jacks is lots for shooting to deal with.
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Post by steeltitan on Aug 27, 2019 9:42:49 GMT
jdeckert , why don’t you think jack-heavy WGK is viable? I’ve been running Vlad 1 with either 5 jacks and 9 rockets, or 6 jacks and 6 rockets, with one of the Jacks marshaled by Sorscha 0, plus an Adjunct. I don’t find any part of that “not viable.” Anyway, I’m a sucker for good love stories and fully loaded jacks that threaten 14” - especially Marauders. A fully loaded Marauder with S&P, Boundless Charge, and 3 focus will independently kill most huge bases in the game and when you’re bringing 3 of them (both my 5 jack and 6 jack build start with 3 marauders), it’s really hard to defend against. Another person wondering why Vlad1 WGK doesn't still work?
Massive rocket spam doesn't work that well, but a good mix of jacks and rockets that threat far does good work, while Sac Pawn for your caster is a nice theme benefit against quite a bit of shooting (not all, obviously).
I don't think the Gun Carriage is a liability in the match-up. It's not going to do as much as against a list that is trying to close the distance, but it's still something that moves fast and can be very disruptive, all with high ARM and boxes. I've been trying two of them recently and that + jacks is lots for shooting to deal with.
I want to try out this list versus my buddy's CG: Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Prince - WJ: +28 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 0 - Victor - PC: 34 (Battlegroup Points Used: 28) Winter Guard Gun Carriage - PC: 17 Winter Guard Gun Carriage - PC: 17 Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 0 Alexia, Mistress of the Witchfire - PC: 7 - Thrall Warrior Winter Guard Artillery Kapitan - PC: 0 Winter Guard Artillery Kapitan - PC: 0 Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 I played it once with the usual 3 marauders but, for one, i clocked myself. Having just the victor in there will help me with clock management. In the double CG build, I havent found a satisfying way to include S0 for boundless charge. Without S0, Vlad1 is too focus constrained to BC enough marauders (assuming i will keep casting S&P every turn). I know the 3x marauders build is a tried and tested list but my buddy easily plays around the threat ranges knowing i wont be able to threat that far with more than 1 jack (or not cast S&P). I do feel that the 3 Marauder list is better vs gunlines (focus firing down one colossal shouldnt be super hard) but i havent figured out how to run it yet. Edit: i just realized you might not rlly be able to classify CG as a gunline...its hardly a stand and shoot army (except maybe Gearheart).
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 27, 2019 11:30:37 GMT
It looks like a fun list.
I love Alexia 2, and she's nearly an auto include with Wolves, but she dies to guns and her solos die to guns so given you're trying to project against a gunline I'd drop her and a Gun Carraige in favor of Sorscha 0 and more jacks.
Something like...
Vlad, Adjunct, Victor, Marauder GC Sorscha 0, Marauder Joe, Tinker 2X min WGRC + 3 Rockets
The Adjunct with Vlad is great. Seeing through clouds and magic weapons (the latter does not matter here, of course) is wonderful.
Edit: Not for nothing I think you really want the 15 inch that range on Victor. The difference between 13 inches and 15 inches against GC is the ability to always out-threaten the Vulcan, and retaliate almost anytime you’ve been shot by it. Yes, the Railless can skirt around with Repo, but I think that means your opponent is giving up in scenario.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 27, 2019 13:36:53 GMT
It looks like a fun list. I love Alexia 2, and she's nearly an auto include with Wolves, but she dies to guns and her solos die to guns so given you're trying to project against a gunline I'd drop her and a Gun Carraige in favor of Sorscha 0 and more jacks. Something like... Vlad, Adjunct, Victor, Marauder GC Sorscha 0, Marauder Joe, Tinker 2X min WGRC + 3 Rockets The Adjunct with Vlad is great. Seeing through clouds and magic weapons (the latter does not matter here, of course) is wonderful. Edit: Not for nothing I think you really want the 15 inch that range on Victor. The difference between 13 inches and 15 inches against GC is the ability to always out-threaten the Vulcan, and retaliate almost anytime you’ve been shot by it. Yes, the Railless can skirt around with Repo, but I think that means your opponent is giving up in scenario. I will try it if/when I get a second unit of rifles.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 27, 2019 14:29:35 GMT
Sand, I think you could swap WGI in for the rifles, drop the Tinker and insert the Officer and call your mini death star good.
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Post by borderprince on Aug 27, 2019 15:24:33 GMT
I want to try out this list versus my buddy's CG: Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Prince - WJ: +28 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 0 - Victor - PC: 34 (Battlegroup Points Used: 28) Winter Guard Gun Carriage - PC: 17 Winter Guard Gun Carriage - PC: 17 Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 0 Alexia, Mistress of the Witchfire - PC: 7 - Thrall Warrior Winter Guard Artillery Kapitan - PC: 0 Winter Guard Artillery Kapitan - PC: 0 Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 I played it once with the usual 3 marauders but, for one, i clocked myself. Having just the victor in there will help me with clock management. In the double CG build, I havent found a satisfying way to include S0 for boundless charge. Without S0, Vlad1 is too focus constrained to BC enough marauders (assuming i will keep casting S&P every turn). I know the 3x marauders build is a tried and tested list but my buddy easily plays around the threat ranges knowing i wont be able to threat that far with more than 1 jack (or not cast S&P). I do feel that the 3 Marauder list is better vs gunlines (focus firing down one colossal shouldnt be super hard) but i havent figured out how to run it yet. Edit: i just realized you might not rlly be able to classify CG as a gunline...its hardly a stand and shoot army (except maybe Gearheart). With double Gun Carriage I've got Sorscha0 into this list:
Vlad1
-Marauder
-Marauder
-Marauder
-Adjunct (free)
Max WGI + UA (free)
Min WGI + 3 rockets
Sorscha0
-Destroyer
Gun Carriage
Gun Carriage
Anyone spotted what's missing? No Joe. Sometimes I surprise even myself.
I haven't missed him too much. S&P gives you enough accuracy most of the time. I have missed Bear's Strength sometimes, but not that often. Most the WG in melee are using the mini-feat to be POW12, or they're already dead. With Vlad1 I don't think Joe's an auto-include (a caster like Irusk2 is a different matter). He's definitely very nice, but very nice is not the same as essential.
There's still lots of high POW shooting in the list, even with only 3 rockets. All shorter ranged than rocket spam, but the list isn't meant to win a long-ranged stand off. It's meant to deal with gunlines by being fast and doing lots of work close in.
The only flex is really Sorscha0's jack. The Destroyer gives the list a reliable sniper (boosted under S&P with the Adjunct can get most small-based solos in the game in one shot). I'm still mulling a Rager for another tough model with short-range shooting that really likes S&P. That would let me restore Joe, upgrade the min WGI to rockets or something else.
Incidentally, having 5 models in the list that can slam without using Focus is both fun and really useful in scenario.
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Post by steeltitan on Aug 27, 2019 15:50:34 GMT
I love some of the ideas!
The nice thing with the rifles is that one min unit of rifles + rockets and the GC do 34.5 damage to a Railless Interceptor. So with some good rolling you might remove it in one go or you just throw some early chip damage on it with Victor.
That becomes a little harder with the Infantry and you'd have to bank a little harder on the second unit of rockets to contribute. Thats a lot of fiddling with little dudes.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 27, 2019 15:55:36 GMT
all of these I think are the right consideration at the present releases. I am NOT sold, however, on double fun carriages - or at least not without finding a way to give them a WGAK to provide some extra accuracy. You REALLY want those RAT 5 shots to hit and while you SOMETIMES will be under S&P - sometimes you will not in the new packet since that gives up the uberness of having them wide on the flank and operating with some independent. But that is sorta like arguing over Vanilla vs. Strawberry ice cream.
More on point I think that it is better to get the Victor and S0 into these sorts of lists rather than Maurader Spam. The reason is that you can, in MOST match ups, put her right on the Victor's but and then use Joe+No Sleeping to create a no knockdown tough screen of cheap ass WGI. Maybe get a chance to run tonight.......
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Post by jdeckert on Aug 27, 2019 18:21:23 GMT
Yeah, that was my knee-jerk reaction to the WGK changes since the theme doesn't do anything for 'jacks anymore. I can see Vlad1 working with his feat being strictly better than the advance move that the 'jacks lost. That said, I really don't like Vlad1 so it's back to the drawing board for me Maybe I'll look for some morrowan stuff. Of course, Vlad1 with 'jacks and shooting is still a totally reasonable answer to my question - just personal bias.
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