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Post by voidbender on Aug 27, 2019 16:18:01 GMT
Cool, so if this idea pays off I may actually be the first to develop it. Even if it only ends up good against high-volume moderate pow and low-moderate armor gun lines.
The Ravagore seems within reason looking at the Ret heavies, I think the laugh comes when comparing any boosting Battle engine to a jack/beast.
Battle engines seem to me to have been balanced around the output of a colossal that cannot buy/boost. When you do that and then add the ability to boost for half the cost (even with fewer boxes), issues arise. With the exception of the sacral vault, all of the non-caster engines that have ways to buy or boost seem significantly overtuned in comparison to just about anything else in the game.
But, that's the current game. I'm less interested in whether Legion has a great answer than I am in finding the best answer that exists.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578 
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Post by Juris on Aug 27, 2019 16:51:06 GMT
I'm used to seeing him with Tridents and only a couple jacks, which really aren't that dangerous when they can't slam your huge base. Wasting jack shots on your stealth guys is even better. As for Mortality, if you have SGs in your list, he has to end within 17" to use it (no witch Mark). In fact, thanks to Flying High, he has to end within 16" tov shoot you. Your Archangels threaten 18" with their shooting. Meanwhile you have Blightblades ambushing in to jam his shooting elements and squeeze him to the center. Some Garyth players bring an arc node. Some Garyth players bring Sylys. Even if it's just walking 7", casting mortality at at a target 10" away (17" total threat), then re-positioning 5" back, that can sometimes be a problem. |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Aug 27, 2019 21:20:38 GMT
I'm used to seeing him with Tridents and only a couple jacks, which really aren't that dangerous when they can't slam your huge base. Wasting jack shots on your stealth guys is even better. As for Mortality, if you have SGs in your list, he has to end within 17" to use it (no witch Mark). In fact, thanks to Flying High, he has to end within 16" tov shoot you. Your Archangels threaten 18" with their shooting. Meanwhile you have Blightblades ambushing in to jam his shooting elements and squeeze him to the center. Some Garyth players bring an arc node. Some Garyth players bring Sylys. Even if it's just walking 7", casting mortality at at a target 10" away (17" total threat), then re-positioning 5" back, that can sometimes be a problem. Oh it's a huge problem. But it's a problem that 2 Archangels can answer pretty well. And that answer is lighting him in fire. |
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Aug 27, 2019 21:43:12 GMT
CasterKill is always a nice option (the only option ?  ) in Legion. Maybe 2 Archangels with Lylyth3 ? moar speed, and if you hit once then no more high DEF. Coupled with scouts that can CRA and have hunter to freeze the guy first. I'm not sure I've seen the guy with a lot of shield guards... I'm not on top of the scyrah refs. The problem is, he'll probably see this coming from far far way, and then he just has to hide and let the tridents maul the AA first. Still worst a try. It's not like a lot of other options come to mind... |
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Post by voidbender on Aug 27, 2019 23:34:50 GMT
Yeah, I just played against Issyria double tridents, which seems not a terribly different matchup for legion. Mortality would have a similar effect on 1-2 of my models as the benefits to his models from Issyria's feat, and I'm not getting to melee for admonition to matter.
Armor 23 is not enough. I scored 2 on bottom of 2 then was essentially tabled top of 3 on my feat turn: both thrones, sorceress, and all 4 bloodseers.
I lost 1 carnivean top of 2 which could have been prevented with valkyries, but that wouldn't have made enough difference. I had not gotten in range to kill anything at all.
I doubt def 17 would be enough either with Fyanna2 unless i stay too far away for him to aim and lose on scenario.
I have a Lylyth3 list that I'm happy with in general, having repeatedly done well into Grymkin, cryx, and circle. I stopped using an archangel in favor of another carnivean and Azreal for another spray for assassinations without LoS and the ability to protect them with windwall.
It still seems to be the best available vs tridents: I've never been close to a win there, but I felt like there was a chance.
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Post by snotling on Aug 28, 2019 14:19:32 GMT
How about Archangel(s) with Abby1 and Sacral Vault?
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Post by voidbender on Aug 28, 2019 15:13:16 GMT
How about Archangel(s) with Abby1 and Sacral Vault? He can afford to give you the ranged alpha: at def 14 vs range, the AA's together will not remove a trident. You survive his next turn with Abby1's feat as he hides Garry and chips some damage in with the AFG and trident boosts: assuming he can't kill the vault instead. You'll get one more turn of ranged or melee attacks probably removing 1 trident, but if you cannot assassinate then you lose at least 1, probably both the AA's next turn. It may have a chance vs Garry (probably not Issyria) if he doesn't have the hermit. If he does, then he doesn't need mortality to kill an AA under Abby's feat with just him and the 2 tridents. |
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Post by snotling on Aug 28, 2019 15:53:51 GMT
How about Archangel(s) with Abby1 and Sacral Vault? He can afford to give you the ranged alpha: at def 14 vs range, the AA's together will not remove a trident. You survive his next turn with Abby1's feat as he hides Garry and chips some damage in with the AFG and trident boosts: assuming he can't kill the vault instead. You'll get one more turn of ranged or melee attacks probably removing 1 trident, but if you cannot assassinate then you lose at least 1, probably both the AA's next turn. It may have a chance vs Garry (probably not Issyria) if he doesn't have the hermit. If he does, then he doesn't need mortality to kill an AA under Abby's feat with just him and the 2 tridents. What ranged alpha? xD
I move one or two AAs to the center of the table. Vault behind them in range to keep them safe form mortality. To even shoot at the archangels, he is in their threatrange (and probably in the threadranges of most of your other stuff, because of flying high), even with repo. If he wants to spend his turn shooting at the vault. yay. Without mortality, and a couple of valks and the hermit, can he even kill a archangel? Then you feat, and charge with the archangels whatever he comitted to shooting at them or szenario. Then he has to remove the fully healed archangels with whatever is left in his list. thats the plan.
And you could even do cute things with sorcs+hellions he also has to remove before the tridens can shoots at the AAs.
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Post by voidbender on Aug 28, 2019 17:27:05 GMT
Yes, he can kill an archangel without mortality without being personally involved if it's not Abby's feat turn.
Let's say he has no hermit, no mortality, and runs away without shooting rather than doing his AP shot from behind a house or forest. The charging tridents alone do, on average with average number of shots, 46 damage to the AA. The valkyries do not meaningfully reduce that since his unboosted damage rolls are only doing 1 dmg apiece. He then has Morros (or even the Chimera) to finish it off in melee, or 2 artillery guns, 2 snipers that can do 3 dmg apiece, 2 shots with the AFG, and 2 shots with each harpy to do the last 4 damage.
Edit: I forgot the electromancers.
If you have two AA's, the vault, and valkyries, then you cannot afford another heavy: not even a Neraph, so there's not much "other stuff" his army will be in range of.
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eauc
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by eauc on Aug 28, 2019 18:14:06 GMT
Yes. Just don't forget the AFGs. Once those things aim they still shoot at AAs from 13" IIRC, and the AA can probably engage the AFGs just at 9" in return (with the huge base it's easier to work around polarity shield). And those things do 2x boosted pow16s, so those are the shots you'll probably shield guard if you have any, not the multiple lower-power shots of the Tridents. Fortunately Garryth seems to only play 1 AFG in his lists. I was wondering if pRhyas with Proteus could be a funny solution ? Just wait for the moment Garryth is less than 6" away from one of his 3 huge bases  Plus, it means you're in oracles so you can play full BEs to buy time. |
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Post by voidbender on Aug 28, 2019 18:27:03 GMT
I may actually try Fyanna2.
If i run to engage on feat turn then the ones i'm engaging can't aim, and he'll have to take free strikes to clear my models from engagement to shoot them with anything else. If he misses with an unlucky roll i may be able to dodge back to engagement. If terrain works out for cover or concealment, all the better.
I'll still have just the one turn after to assassinate, but I'll have (hopefully) multiple heavies left up there to cover the field.
The tankiest list i could build can't bear the necessary turn so it may be time to try the dodgiest.
It's something to try, though at this point I suspect lylyth3 to still be the better choice.
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Post by voidbender on Aug 28, 2019 18:58:05 GMT
Alright, this will be my next test. An alternative may be to put it in oracles, swap Golab and 3 spell martyrs for a Neraph and another unit of valkyries.
War Room Army
Legion of Everblight - Slip 'N Slide
Theme: Ravens of War
75 / 75 Army
Dugout - Steamroller Objective
Fyanna, Torment of Everblight - WB: +28
- Succubus - PC: 4
- Neraph - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12)
- Neraph - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12)
- Neraph - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4)
- Neraph - PC: 12
- Golab - PC: 17
- Seraph - PC: 14
The Forsaken - PC: 4
Hermit of Henge Hold - PC: 5
Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion - PC: 0
Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion - PC: 0
Spell Martyr - PC: 1
Spell Martyr - PC: 1
The Forsaken - PC: 0
Spell Martyr - PC: 1
Farrow Valkyries - Leader & 2 Grunts: 8
THEME: Ravens of War
---
GENERATED : 08/28/2019 14:56:04
BUILD ID : 2089.19-07-18
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) in Legion. Maybe 2 Archangels with Lylyth3 ? moar speed, and if you hit once then no more high DEF. Coupled with scouts that can CRA and have hunter to freeze the guy first. I'm not sure I've seen the guy with a lot of shield guards... I'm not on top of the scyrah refs.