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Post by hamicron on Aug 21, 2019 19:08:10 GMT
So I think fundamentally I agree with Auracco’s assessment on jack heavy topping out a three heavies. None of the casters have enough tools to speed up a quantity of jacks or provide rapid recovery tools when you run into issues.
If I were to try the dream it would be leveraging our cheapest heavies and Menoths excellent support to achieve good trades and bully a flank.
To whit something like this:
Feora, the Conquering Flame - WJ: +27 - Devastator - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 - Mad Dog - PC: 8 - Mad Dog - PC: 8 - Mad Dog - PC: 8 - Berserker - PC: 8 - Berserker - PC: 8
Hand of Silence - PC: 7 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Hermit of Henge Hold - PC: 0 High Paladin Dartan Vilmon - PC: 0 Wrack - PC: 1
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Kossite Woodsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6
That’s 8 heavies. The Devastator gets Redline and heads off to contest aflank. Everything else bully’s the other flank in a giant blob. Hopefully you just trade up with Incite, Battle and Master of Ruin giving you a +6 swing. Lots of focus, probably lots of exploding Jacks! Quantity has a quality all of its own.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Aug 21, 2019 19:21:52 GMT
I keep reading the title of this thread as "Horse Face Rides Again".
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Post by hocestbellum on Aug 21, 2019 19:54:55 GMT
I keep reading the title of this thread as "Horse Face Rides Again". Good old classic sculpt Zerkova...
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Post by hamicron on Aug 21, 2019 21:08:37 GMT
I keep reading the title of this thread as "Horse Face Rides Again". My preferred title would have been 'Horsey, Horsey don't you stop, just let your hooves crush the enemies of the motherland' But alas far too long
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d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on Aug 22, 2019 1:05:57 GMT
F3ora was also be my pick to run jack heavy, though I really recommend bringing min flamebingers for feat synergy. Three of them could run 18" around in different directions (or charge + side steps + 5" repo) on feat turn to set almost everything within 14" of F3ora on fire. I use monks for this in FM, but flamebringers are still good enough.
The silly list I almost took instead of Reznik2 to my last event was:
F3ora: - Berserker - Berserker - Berserker - Berserker - Mad Dog - Mad Dog
Vassal x2 (free) Vilmon (free) Yuri (free)
Min choir Min choir Initiates Min flamebringers Min uhlans Min vengers
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 22, 2019 8:49:34 GMT
Here’s my second attempt at a list I like. I’m investing more in jack points, but focused on bringing two higher quality jacks that can make the most out of Vlad’s toolkit.
Thoughts on the Jacks... The Judicator is Vlad’s natural BFF. On Turn 1 (where you’ve got odds on to go first because of the theme’s reroll benefit), you put Murderous on the Judicator in order to run it 14”. From Turn 2 on, he’s able to bully the middle of the board with POW 14-16 flamethrowers threatening (7” deployment, 14” turn 1 run, 5-7” turn 2 walk, 10” spray) 36”-38”?!? Add +4” for the rockets.
Alternatively, you’ve got a boosted MAT 8, POW 23 murderous caster killer that threatens out to (7+14+12) 33”. That seems...really good.
Because your opponent doesn’t know if you’re keeping Murderous on the Judicator, or cycling HOF, he’s got to respect the threat ranges. Because you’ve got 3 Wracks in the list, plus two Vassals, you’ve got focus for days to rearrange your upkeeps and fuel both the Judicator and the Spriggan.
OK, why the Spriggan? The list loves his toolkit, and his toolkit loves this list. Judicator + HOF + Flares = dead stealth models. Choir + Spriggan + Murderous = boosted MAT 8 POW 20 bulldozing beatstick threatening 11” (not game changing, but nice). The Choir reward Dual Attack, with the shoulder cannons now a respectable POW 12/6. With only 2 jacks on the board, I think the extra +1 ARM here might matter. And, I like the Spriggan Enliven synergy.
Late game, a Hand-of-Fated Judicator plus a Murderously-Enlivened-Spriggan seems like a reallly solid set of beatstickery. Thoughts on the Units... I like the Outriders plus Flamebringers on account of their ability to clear out swaths of infantry. With so few warrior models in the list (at least warriors that get work done), I think the list needs and benefits from each flank having a unit that can clear sh!t out. I’m not missing the Uhlans so much since the Judi and Spriggan, and situationally Vlad, Vilmont and the Archon, are the army’s ARM crackers.
Depending on the matchup, and how your opponent counterdeployed, you might go a different route but in general I like the thought of putting HOF on the Outriders first turn. Fated-Outriders are one of the best ranged units in the game, and backed up by the Judicator you’ve got a really respectable ranged game. In a situation where you want to Feat on turn 2, you probably activate the Outriders first, walk in - shoot - repo out of the way - cycle HOF - the feat.
Now you can put HOF on the lists best skirmishers, or the Judicator.
I really like the Flame Bringers for a few reasons. First, they’re 3 fewer points than the Uhlans, which cleared out enough headroom to squeeze in 2 more wracks and a mechanik.
More importantly, I like the extra melee attack. Between boosted impact attacks, mount attack (OK, the Uhlans had that too), and two weapon master blades, it feels like one unit can clear out a lot of chaff. With HOF, maybe even hard chaff.
Let’s see, against something like a Warspear (ARM 16, 5 boxes), you’re surpassing ARM plus boxes on the initial charge attack. If a second model is in range, average dice will leave it on 1-2 boxes but if you’ve cycled HOF over then that’s a dead warspear. On the feat turn, you can then side step 2”, repo 5” (vs. 3” with Uhlans), Tgheand sprint back 10”. And the unit has Pathfinder on the way out, not just the way in, so it really feels like the murder pony girls are going to live to fight another day.
As for the Choir...do I really need to comment?
Thoughts on the support solos... Damn, but I do love the Archon/Judi synergy. Now, can someone explain to me why the Flame Bringers don’t bring flame? Where’s the crit fire on their swords? Sheesh.
I like 3 wracks and 2 free vassals in order to juggle the upkeeps and fuel both jacks. And Vlad’s going to like the option of charging in a bigger stack, as has been pointed out elsewhere.
Vilmont (free ARM 21 shield guard? Yes please) and the Hermit seem like good Requisition options. Maybe you can make the argument to put Yuri in over Vilmont, but I think I’d rather have the shield guard despite Vlad having Windwall. When Vlad starts throwing his focus around to get work done, I don’t think he’s going to want to be casting it. Anyway, Yuri might still be a good option...
Vladimir Tzepesci, Great Prince of Umbrey - WJ: +27 - Judicator - PC: 35 (Battlegroup Points Used: 27) - Spriggan - PC: 17
Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Hermit of Henge Hold - PC: 0 High Paladin Dartan Vilmon - PC: 0 Menite Archon - PC: 8 Wrack - PC: 1 Wrack - PC: 1 Wrack - PC: 1 Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Flame Bringers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 17 Greylord Outriders - Leader & 4 Grunts: 17
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Aug 22, 2019 9:08:45 GMT
Overall a pretty tasty list! Though I'd consider the grolar over the spriggan by dropping a wrack.
SPD6 + heavy boiler and pathfinder. MAT7 boosted attacks on warriors, P&S20 Ram (Ram + Sidestep fun on feat turn) melee weapon, plus a more functional second weapon. POW14 rapid fire cannon too.
Oh, I think the spriggan grenades actually go to POW12/7, not 12/6.
Cheers, Dave
EDIT: Just noticed your comments on reposition and sprint. I believe you can only do one or the other.
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Post by hamicron on Aug 22, 2019 9:17:40 GMT
Solid list. I think 3 Wracks is overkill. You can only draw 1 focus from them in total per turn so any after the first is just redundancy. 2 wracks felt like a sweet spot in terms of board coverage.
Then with that spare point an extra mechanic? Keep everything top notch and useful to score flags. I can see arguments both ways on the Spriggan vs Grolar and I think it’ll depend what your meta has.
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Post by hamicron on Aug 22, 2019 9:19:18 GMT
EDIT: Just noticed your comments on reposition and sprint. I believe you can only do one or the other. Yeah that’s correct. Sprint or Reposition not both.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 22, 2019 10:08:35 GMT
Overall a pretty tasty list! Though I'd consider the grolar over the spriggan by dropping a wrack. SPD6 + heavy boiler and pathfinder. MAT7 boosted attacks on warriors, P&S20 Ram (Ram + Sidestep fun on feat turn) melee weapon, plus a more functional second weapon. POW14 rapid fire cannon too. Oh, I think the spriggan grenades actually go to POW12/7, not 12/6. Cheers, Dave EDIT: Just noticed your comments on reposition and sprint. I believe you can only do one or the other. I’m a bit up in the air between a Grolar and a Spriggan, actually. I have the same debate with Strakhov 1 and the first build of this list had one. Probably matchup dependent, but I do like the Heavy Boiler and Pathfinder to keep the Grolar relevant early. Thanks everyone for the comments so far. I learned 2 things and was reminded by a third that I’d forgotten. 1. I didn’t know that you can’t stack Sprint and Repo. Thanks for pointing that out. (It’s rather obvious now that I’ve reread the cards). I can’t remember ever running a list where I could do both (I painted Vlad 3 at the end of MK2, then have left him on the shelf since)... 2. I didn’t know that you can’t pull more than 1 focus a turn off one (and only one) Wrack per turn. I’d somehow glossed over that. 3. Yes, the Spriggan’s AOEs would be POW 7. That oversight I blame on my insomnia and subsequent 4 am list building. A good pro tip to remember though.
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Post by auraco on Aug 22, 2019 11:50:38 GMT
Choir don’t give +2 to hit. So I’m not sure where the Mat8 is comming from.
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Post by michael on Aug 22, 2019 12:14:40 GMT
Choir don’t give +2 to hit. So I’m not sure where the Mat8 is comming from. Powerful Charge on the Spriggan’s lance. ALSO: Armchair, the Spriggan shoulder grenades’ blasts are POW 7, not POW 6. 10 halved to 5, +2. Edit: also I guess I should read all the posts before responding.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 22, 2019 12:17:25 GMT
Choir don’t give +2 to hit. So I’m not sure where the Mat8 is comming from. Powerful Charge? Sleep deprivation? Wishful thinking? All 3?
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Post by auraco on Aug 22, 2019 13:19:18 GMT
Oh right, thought you meant all attacks would be at mat 8, my bad. I just assumed you were going for the mk2 choir rules that also gave jacks +2 to hit.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Aug 22, 2019 13:59:54 GMT
In regards to Reznik's feat I am very sure that neither Rain of Death, nor Pony sprays are ranged or melee attacks, so no mass blowing up of infantry (outside of Hand of Silence sprays, AOEs or the Archon's thresher). :/ I also checked out the Protectorate heavies and the Vanquisher has both and AOE and thresher. What is the verdict on him?
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