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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 15, 2019 1:06:50 GMT
So we don’t know his final rules but here’s where he was at the end of the CID.
MAT 7, RAT 6, DEF 14, ARM 17 with Flight
Dark Shroud - While in this model’s melee range, enemy models suffer –2 ARM. Divine Manifestation - This model is not a living model, cannot become knocked down, and never suffers Blind. Dual Attack - This model can make melee and ranged attacks in the same activation. When this model makes its initial melee attacks or a power attack, it can also make its initial ranged attacks. This model can make ranged attacks even while in melee. Entropic Force - While within 5 ̋ of this model, enemy models lose Tough XICONX and cannot have damage removed from them. Soul Taker: Spectral Scavenger - This model can gain soul tokens. When a living enemy model is destroyed in this model’s command range, this model gains the destroyed model’s soul token. Additionally, when a friendly living model is destroyed by a continuous effect, an enemy attack, or collateral damage from an enemy attack while in this model’s command range, this model gains the destroyed model’s soul token. This model can have up to three soul tokens at any time. This model can spend soul tokens for the following: •Soul Phase - This model can spend a soul token at any time during its activation to gain Incorporeal XICONX for one turn. •Strength of Death - During its Combat Action, this model can spend soul tokens to boost one attack or damage roll for each token spent. Soul Ward - Enemy models cannot gain soul tokens from friendly models destroyed in this model’s command range. Void Walk - Once per activation, immediately after resolving an attack in which it destroyed a living or undead enemy model with an attack during its Combat Action, you can place this model anywhere completely within 8 ̋ of its current location.
RNG 10 POW 14 Spray, and 2 1” Melee attacks at POW 13
Cost - 8
So here’s the question. 1 seems awesome with Wolves, but what about 2? Are two worth a full unit of Outriders? One of these guys is worth 5 (count them, 5) doomreavers.
So? Thoughts?
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Post by benjamini on Aug 15, 2019 5:08:49 GMT
Edit: sorry if this reads as ramble-y, it is late and I should probably be sleeping . Somewhat lamely I think my personal answer is: It depends. The void archon has some tasty rules, no doubt. But I think most of the established Wolves Archetypes don't see as much benefit from a pair of them. I don't really play this sort of list much, but my understanding of Doom Reaver spam is that the number of bodies matters. The Void Archon seems to help them hit a little harder there, but I don't think you're getting your points worth if you're not playing a caster that can protect doomies well on the approach.. Someone like Old Witch 2 could probably make good use of a double Void Archon Package though! In her case you can probably better justify dropping a unit or so of Doomies to make room because of Wind Storm. Between Curse of Shadows, the Koldun Lords, and dark shroud from the Void Archon, you have a tasty bit of potential for arm debuff, and wind storm helps the Doomies get where they are going so you have less need for raw numbers. Other casters who are good at protecting models on the approach could also be interesting... Zerkova 1 and Irusk 2 probably have some potential, though I still think Old Witch 2 does it best. On the other side of things, I don't think Zerkova 2 or any of the lesser spell-slinging variants really want to drop spellcasters to make room for these guy... but I could be wrong. Outrider sprays ignore target in Melee penalties, and Void Walk could get the Archon into interesting places. I suppose it will require testing when the model launches. If you wanted to run a jack heavy variant, you could probably get some use out of them... but I think you'd still want to save some points for a small unit or two of something.
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Post by borderprince on Aug 15, 2019 5:12:32 GMT
From a few games:
(1) provided you don't play the Void Archon as a Dark Shroud provider, it's a good solo for scenario purposes. Much less squishy than most the other solos in Wolves, especially with Incorporeal up (add a Greylord cloud to suit if you want). You can move, shoot and then return to where you need to be, which is really handy and means your scenario solo is still doing work. If you have convenient terrain to hide behind, your scenario game becomes much stronger.
(2) That means I found Dark Shroud was better treated as either a buff to its own attacks or a late game thing when I really needed something dead. Applying Dark Shroud earlire got the Archon killed. Turns out Incorporeal on a single model isn't much protection these days, with everyone having access to ways to deal with it (hell, they gave Khador the Adjunct!). And Doomreavers can berserk attack an Incorporeal Archon...
Sometimes it might be worth losing the Archon if taking out a colossal or the like, it's a risk/reward calculation at that point.
In terms of lists, Outriders still seem better with Vlad2 because of Hand of Fate means their sprays have more potential. I tried them once with Sorscha1. Turns out that a model with a 10" spray likes opposing models that are frozen. Who knew? I also like that the spray is not cold damage typed. The discussion about 3 Archon lists has got me thinking about OW2, partly because I can then also field Alexia1.
As for one or two, with Sorscha1 I tried two, replacing the Outriders. It was different. Fewer sprays, but higher quality, which wasn't a bad thing. Spectral Scavenger on two models meant I didn't fill up on souls too early on the approach. In effect, I traded Doomreavers for boosts and Incorporeal. That was helpful sometimes. Boosted damage POW14 (POW16 vs the target in melee) shooting is not to be sniffed at and is much better than the Outriders against medium based stuff.
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Post by auraco on Aug 15, 2019 14:29:38 GMT
To me it really depends. In wolves it won't be missing out on souls because even when things are going well doom reavers tend to die, so filling it with souls shouldn't be a problem. With that said, the souls mean easy boosting, which is pretty good since it has a pretty good offensive power. The trade between a full unit of outriders or two void archon boils down to what kind of support can my caster give. Vlad will prefer the outriders, because hand of fate is a thing, but he doesn't have any tools to help the void archon, and you need the boosts less since you have hand of fate. My experiences with Vlad is also that you don't usually have problems with armor thanks to the feat and arcane might. Where the void archon become interesting is with OW2 and Sorscha1, Wind storm and fog of war are good to help protect it, and they both like having the damage buff, they also both like its ability to boost since they have less ways to help the outriders hit than hand of fate on Vlad2. It should be interesting with Zerkova1, but I dislike her in wolves and find her way more interesting in Flames in the dark where the army has so many blessed and damage buff that her lack of damage buff isn't an issue. That being said, the void archon does provide her with a much needed damage buff.
The only thing that really saddens me about the void archon is that he's not faction so boundless charge and greylord clouds are not options for him, so the support we have for him is mostly indirect, puppet master from the koldun lord does work though, having a reroll on boostable attack makes them really reliable and with dark shroud and the boost from the souls the void archon does hit pretty hard on its own.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 15, 2019 15:58:15 GMT
With the last CID I REALLY like them with S1 in Wolves. As noted....you can abuse fog of war (def 16 vs. shooting) and Beast 09 (shield guard) and Hermit (one shot does NOTHING....do you hear me NOTHING!!!) to protect her early when she REALLY wants to be up the field and threaten a deep assassination. You are going to be bringing Hermit with her for telemetry jam on Freezing Grip. So in a lot of ways you have the potential for a 6 ARM swing. Not always and your Archon needs to get work that turn but that SHOULD leave a mark ;-)
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Aug 15, 2019 16:53:06 GMT
With the last CID I REALLY like them with S1 in Wolves. As noted....you can abuse fog of war (def 16 vs. shooting) and Beast 09 (shield guard) and Hermit (one shot does NOTHING....do you hear me NOTHING!!!) to protect her early when she REALLY wants to be up the field and threaten a deep assassination. You are going to be bringing Hermit with her for telemetry jam on Freezing Grip. So in a lot of ways you have the potential for a 6 ARM swing. Not always and your Archon needs to get work that turn but that SHOULD leave a mark ;-) The problem in my list is that if i replace alexia2 with the hermit I'm 2 points down and I can't fill them up with a tinker... which is a massive FeelsBadMAn
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Post by sand20go on Aug 15, 2019 17:57:21 GMT
With the last CID I REALLY like them with S1 in Wolves. As noted....you can abuse fog of war (def 16 vs. shooting) and Beast 09 (shield guard) and Hermit (one shot does NOTHING....do you hear me NOTHING!!!) to protect her early when she REALLY wants to be up the field and threaten a deep assassination. You are going to be bringing Hermit with her for telemetry jam on Freezing Grip. So in a lot of ways you have the potential for a 6 ARM swing. Not always and your Archon needs to get work that turn but that SHOULD leave a mark ;-) The problem in my list is that if i replace alexia2 with the hermit I'm 2 points down and I can't fill them up with a tinker... which is a massive FeelsBadMAn What is the jack load out? Now field testing is going to be important but I think that with the archons and the Koldun lord (and the hermit as extra credit) you could go with one of our lessor shooting jacks. Not saying it is good.....but nothing says I love you like 2 effective POW 21 decimator shots ;-)
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Aug 15, 2019 21:11:57 GMT
The problem in my list is that if i replace alexia2 with the hermit I'm 2 points down and I can't fill them up with a tinker... which is a massive FeelsBadMAn What is the jack load out? Now field testing is going to be important but I think that with the archons and the Koldun lord (and the hermit as extra credit) you could go with one of our lessor shooting jacks. Not saying it is good.....but nothing says I love you like 2 effective POW 21 decimator shots ;-) Beast and Ruin. I guess i could give her Viktor and add another Escort, but the bad-cop badder-cop loadout appeals the me more.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 15, 2019 22:12:01 GMT
What is the jack load out? Now field testing is going to be important but I think that with the archons and the Koldun lord (and the hermit as extra credit) you could go with one of our lessor shooting jacks. Not saying it is good.....but nothing says I love you like 2 effective POW 21 decimator shots ;-) Beast and Ruin. I guess i could give her Viktor and add another Escort, but the bad-cop badder-cop loadout appeals the me more. So those were my initial thoughts. And then I got to thinking that Sorscha, in the end of the day, is mostly a ranged assassin - as well as a caster who has telemetry tuned up freezing grip. While this will leave her a bit sad into non freezable stuff - a bunch of other things are very vulnerable to that - and a Destroyers puny POW 17 axe suddenly is pretty darn uber on a -6 ARM swing and a possible "fish for crits" with puppet master. Meanwhile - he can kill stuff from 18 inches away. Ditto the Void Archon if he "charges", kills, gets a soul, teleports and then boosts the spray into the frozen caster. So my thinking is either Beast+Destroyer or Double D's. Working on figuring out the right points. Again, field testing will help inform how happy I am once October rolls around and the Void is out.
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Post by auraco on Aug 15, 2019 22:26:05 GMT
I’ve tried the Ruin Beast09 jack loadout, and for Sorscha1 I don’t like it, she likes shooting way too much for two melee jack in my opinion. I like at least a destroyer, and the grolar isn’t bad with her, the gun high rate of fire is great to pair with all her freezing tech.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Aug 16, 2019 9:56:28 GMT
Hmmmb hmmm, I can see your points! I will test different loadouts on sorscha and see what I like best! Thank you for your input guys. Edit: Hm, if i shave Ruin down to a Destroyer and replace Alexia with a hermit I have 5 point left over, giving me the choice between Kayazy or a Forge Seer. The Former is probably better but Freezer on Sorscha sounds neat...
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Post by auraco on Aug 16, 2019 11:26:46 GMT
If Sorscha needs freezer it means your in trouble, like she’s probably dead level of trouble. The eliminators are just good, I’d clearly go for that option.
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