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Post by goodk4t on Aug 10, 2019 9:29:13 GMT
Hi guys,
i´m getting back into the game from a long absence, and kinda lost how i can actually win matches with AK. Yeah... it maybe sounds silly but i´m struggling in our meta to find an all comers list. Of course i have to learn the game again, but it kinda feels like that my list building is off as well. The thing is, i dont want to play Vlad 2 because... he is kinda boring (imho). AK is weird for me, because you have these awesome tanky ST which crawl around the map very slowly, you can´t charge with them or they die. How do you guys win with AK?? Sorscha 3 is really interesting, but i havent played one game, where i felt confident fielding her. I mostly have all the relevant models.
Guess it would be nice to get some general tips how to play an AK list.
My Meta consists of mostly Ret (Helenna, Yssyria) and Minions (Carver in Thornfall), PoM Harbie and a bit of Orboros nothing too competitive.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Aug 10, 2019 10:06:29 GMT
Take my advice with a grain of salt as I'm a filthy casual who hasn't had a game this year, but I suggest taking a look at Strak2 and Andy2. Both of them can speed up your shocktroopers (well, it's only Repo from Andy, but that does get them up the table pretty quick) and both of them can give your guys a boost to survivability.
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Post by hocestbellum on Aug 10, 2019 12:15:31 GMT
That's not a question that is easy to answer because of how complex the game is, but in general for an all-comers list you want to be able to deal with high DEF, high ARM, stealth/clouds, and swarms. AC has stuff that can do all of that, like the Tankers for swarms and high DEF, jacks and Demo Corp for high ARM, Adjunct for stealth and clouds.
When listbuilding, you want to maximise your strengths whilst minimising or mitigating your weaknesses. So using Sorscha3 as an example, this is why Kodiaks are popular with her; she has no pathfinder buff, and no in-built infantry clearers. The Kodiak has both, whilst also getting a lot out of her flank ability. The Kodiak mitigates some of her weaknesses, and she mitigates the weaknesses of the Kodiak (low-ish hitting power for a jack). Maximising a strength; Iron Flesh pushes Shocktroopers into the 'obnoxious' region of ARM values, and Winter's Wrath can act as an excellent damage boost for Demo Corps. Atanas can maximise strengths by making the IF shocktroopers tough, and minimise weaknesses by providing pathfinder, extra attacks, and tactician.
Then it's all about the extras. Need more troop clearing? Suppression Tankers. Need more focus? Adjunct/Forge Seer. Need a fast Flank activator? Drakhun. With this part of list building I usually find it's easy to go overboard, so always bear in mind the opportunity cost. Two Drakhuns are great for Flank, but that's at the cost of an entire Shocktrooper unit.
In the actual game you need to know how your list is going to win and how it's going to lose. You also need to know how your opponent is going to try to win, and how to prevent it. In AC with S3 this is likely to be an attrition based game; you have some good protective abilities, and the ability to really hit above your weight class. It should be hard for most opponents to break through IF Shocktroopers, and hard for them to withstand flanking jacks and weaponmaster Demo Corps. Therefore, if you are on even footing when the lines meet you should be hard to beat from there. Your main threats are a) getting behind early on scenario/attrition and b) getting assassinated.
Look at your opponents' armies and work out what the threats are. Those P12 shots are no threat to your jacks or Shocktroopers, but they'll mess up the Demo Corps. Those Banes will shred the jacks and Shocktroopers but they can't get through Sorscha's feat and will probably die to a Suppression Tanker's Covering Fire. Those Vengers hit really hard, but if I sacrifice a few shocktroopers and kill the unit on the counter then I'm ahead on attrition.
Generally speaking I'm always looking for 'how not to lose' rather than 'how to win' with ARM-based attrition, because if you take out all the things that threaten you then you'll simply win out in the long run. Given the speed of MoW in general you need to pay close attention to scenario.
With your specific question regarding the shocktroopers; it's worth charging them if there's something that really needs to die, but generally I'm happy to use them as an obstruction. This is particularly true with a caster like Sorscha or Strakhov2 where you have ARM buffs but not damage buffs. It's worth remembering that they can shoot without compromising Shield Wall, and those guns are seriously powerful.
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mrtuna
Junior Strategist
Posts: 117
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Post by mrtuna on Aug 10, 2019 13:16:57 GMT
Vlad2 is actually a real good all comers casters. His feat cracks armor and arcane might cracks high def.
You already ruled him out though...
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Post by borderprince on Aug 11, 2019 4:41:31 GMT
AK lists can be quite different, so general tips on the field aren't always easy. That said:
(1) If you have an ARM buff, Shocktroopers don't have to crawl. Stick Iron Flesh or similar on a unit of STs and running them (at least Turn 1) is viable - most of the shooting that can reach out and touch them at that point will still struggle with a mere ARM19 unit. The run puts you 12" up the field (14" if you use Desperate Pace too), which is a respectable position from which to start crawling in shield wall.
(2) AK lists usually excel in the longer game, going for an attrition style approach. Typically that is then being used to play for scenario. STs are awesome here, as are the Tankers. Alternatively, use the attrition advantage to open the route to an assassination - that will often only work for those of our casters who stay nearer the front line.
A suggestion for getting back into AK lists that I've found quite user friendly (not an uber list, but game into most things).
Irusk1 - you get all the buffs you could want on a single unit of STs: Iron Flesh (ARM buff); Battle Plan Special Orders (reposition can be used with Shield Wall, so you're not crawling); Battle Lust (damage buff) and a one turn accuracy buff from the feat. These can all be applied at once. You can also use Inhospitable Ground to potentially slow enemy charges, making it more difficult for opponents to charge the super uber buffed unit.
Something like:
Irusk1
-Victor (apply Superiority, run 12" turn 1)
-Greylord Adjunct (your anti-stealth/incorporeal model - apply to Victor. Helping with upkeepers also helps Irusk1)
Max Shocktroopers + UA
Max Bombardiers + UA (I've found these work nicely with Irusk1, but can be replaced by another unit. Feat + mini-feat let's you drop some very accurate shooting into opponents, possibly for a ranged assassination)
Atanas (helpful, not necessarily essential)
Kovnik
Suppression Tanker x2
Strike Tanker x1
Ragman (goes so well with STs, and can make them effectively P+S16)
That leaves 8 points left over. Two possibilities:
(a) min Demo Corps - something that opponents can either ignore and risk their potential to do well above their points in damage (in theory you could get P+S16 + 5D6 damage rolls (charge + Battle Lust + frozen target via a crit)) or target and leave other bits of the list alone. Demo Corps aren't that tough, but they're a decent distraction for enemy shooting and/or going to a zone away from the rest of the army;
or
(b) min Mechanick + Strike Tanker - mechaniks are always useful if you have a colossal, and here they can also repair all the MoW too. That can be great after Irusk1's feat turn, but isn't essential.
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