Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Aug 19, 2019 16:23:00 GMT
I'd actually argue that Zealots are our weakest unit now, just because they suffer the same problems as Cleansers but have a much shorter threat range.
Both suffer, though. We get a spell like Deadeye or the like and you'll see these guys' stock rise rapidly.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Aug 19, 2019 19:12:49 GMT
Also a good pick. It was close for me on which was worse, but what it came down to was that Zealots are in a better theme force, can hit harder (and will hit, even with blast damage), and are more likely to be delivered with the minifeat, while Cleansers are more likely to get the alpha due to the extra 6" of range. I'd still run 2x Cleansers or 3x Zealots in any list if I were going to run either.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Aug 19, 2019 19:45:01 GMT
I'd argue that Zealots are better.
Pros: -cheaper -better theme list -recursion makes them last much longer -significantly better ARM once a single Zealot is killed -Can be immune to spells -Can hit harder vs single targets
Cons: -lower DEF, lower ARM until somebody's killed -much smaller threat range -require a prayer (so giving up spell-immunity/extra damage) to be immune to fire -harder to aim blasts to kill multiple models -blast damage is inferior to spray
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Aug 20, 2019 16:56:46 GMT
I'd disagree on significantly better armor. At best, it's 2 extra armor and still dies to most guns. They take armor buffs better, but defense buffs worse if the enemy can't ignore Ashen Veil on the cleansers. I also think there's something to be said that a POW 10 blast is better than a POW 0 miss.
All other points are good.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Aug 20, 2019 17:13:54 GMT
It's actually a POW 8 blast before other buffs are added in. And if we're adding in other buffs, then the Cleansers are RAT 6 or 7 because I'm taking them with someone who buffs RAT.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Aug 20, 2019 21:12:25 GMT
I'd disagree on significantly better armor. At best, it's 2 extra armor and still dies to most guns. They take armor buffs better, but defense buffs worse if the enemy can't ignore Ashen Veil on the cleansers. I also think there's something to be said that a POW 10 blast is better than a POW 0 miss. All other points are good. +2 ARM isn't bad, it turns POW10 hits from "basically guaranteed" dead to "maybe" dead, and lets them generally survive most blast damage. And if the enemy can't ignore Ashen Veil, then Cleansers are +1 DEF, but if they can ignore Ashen Veil (which has been exceedingly common for me to see), Cleansers are -1 DEF. So I'd argue that, at least once a Zealot has died, Cleansers have worse defensive stats overall. And yes, POW10 blast is > a miss, but AOE3 is much easier to space out to avoid multiple hits than a 8"-10" spray. It's generally an exceptionally good shot that gets 2-3 models under a Zealot's bomb, and an exceptionally bad spray that doesn't get at least 2.
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Post by marxlives on Aug 21, 2019 14:37:09 GMT
I play Legion and I do not like seeing Redeemers across the table when I run a Nyss-heavy list. Blighted elf parts everywhere.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Aug 21, 2019 14:47:47 GMT
I find it weird that you're seeing lists that can trivially ignore Ashen Veil and are also using POW 10s. Gun Mages?
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Aug 21, 2019 16:32:28 GMT
I find it weird that you're seeing lists that can trivially ignore Ashen Veil and are also using POW 10s. Gun Mages? I usually see lists that can hit with it up and bring better guns, like Sloan. Or lots of Undead. Or kallus2 melee. None of which is really a good match for either unit, and not really relevant to this conversation. At the very least, a POW 8-10 blast could damage a Sloan light jack. I think both units are meant to face the same types of matchups, with Zealots slightly edging out in terms of effectiveness due to being able to damage armor if they hit. There really isn't an objective argument either way on which is better all the time, it's more personal table experience and opinions. With my local meta how it is, it makes a lot more sense for me to take Zealots, if I had to choose between the two. After playing Cleansers for a few months, they never quite pull their weight. Neither does Nicia, with her fantastic ability to always miss her first charge attack, no matter the DEF she's trying to hit, so luck also plays a part there.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Aug 21, 2019 19:22:03 GMT
I find it weird that you're seeing lists that can trivially ignore Ashen Veil and are also using POW 10s. Gun Mages? Legion Strider Scouts. And Gun Mages. And Hollowmen.
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