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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Aug 5, 2019 20:52:15 GMT
Hey I was thinking some more about these changes to the theme and realised I don't like them at all. I've allways looked st this theme from the perspective of grim2, who actually made good use of the old theme bonus (send units like fireeaters and highwaymen ahead to enable the feat, while they don't block los because of the theme). Now the theme gives you part of that feat on solos, but who the *_€& is going to send their solos ahead of the gunline? I guess that's where whelps come in? And this los rule for highwaymen... model blocking los to members of their own unit is not usually a problem.
I don't really see the benefit of these changes, am I missing something? I like that we can have a mauler now, but in terms of special rules I'm at a loss.
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Post by anoddman on Aug 5, 2019 22:59:21 GMT
Hey I was thinking some more about these changes to the theme and realised I don't like them at all. I've allways looked st this theme from the perspective of grim2, who actually made good use of the old theme bonus (send units like fireeaters and highwaymen ahead to enable the feat, while they don't block los because of the theme). Now the theme gives you part of that feat on solos, but who the *_€& is going to send their solos ahead of the gunline? I guess that's where whelps come in? And this los rule for highwaymen... model blocking los to members of their own unit is not usually a problem. I don't really see the benefit of these changes, am I missing something? I like that we can have a mauler now, but in terms of special rules I'm at a loss. For Grim2 you get easy access to Mark Target outside of feat turn for 4 points. Highwaymen picked up Practiced Maneuvers so they no longer have the line of sight issues, but yeah you may run into some bad situations on occasion with your Sluggers in the backline. More importantly though, you aren't nearly as restricted to what you can take. Being able to bring a Mauler or getting access to Earth's Blessing or playing a 3-4 heavy battlegroup backed up by decent shooting and still getting access to free solos is pretty awesome. We also have Boomhowler2 as one of the few good solo options available in KC. Grim2 might not benefit quite as much as other warlocks who would've never considered Kriel Company before, but opening up themes is a pretty big shakeup that we're all still sussing out. I'd give it another 6 months before we start seeing a few tried and true lists start taking shape in the theme. By then, Pyg Tanks will hopefully be out too.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Aug 6, 2019 6:57:14 GMT
True the theme definitely opened up, which is a verey good thing. I allways thought not having access to a mauler was big fault in the theme. But... themes across the game opened up like that, it's not a benefit that's specific to this un, neither is having access to boomhowler2 (which is indeed a cool solo).
But what new bonus ìs specific about the theme? It feels like it comes with a 4 point tax to even make use of it.
Having said that I agree it's too early to really tell. Just thinking out loud here. I just have my one or two Grim2 lists so have a very restricted view. Sadly for me it gets nothing out of this beside the point drop on bushwhackers. Which is cool, it allows me to switch min pyg tunnelers for sluggers.
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on Aug 6, 2019 20:40:30 GMT
I don’t recall anybody throwing out what seems like the most obvious solution to me. Disallow the stone, then put in a theme benefit along the lines of “FF battle engines and warbeasts get ___” where ___ is either a flat +2 ARM or Unyielding if that seemed to strong. Whether the Warlock also gets the bonus would depend on playtesting.
This would let us run a wildly different playstyle, but it does have a disadvantage in that I think it takes out our only fix for stealth. Sorcerers can add magic weapon to units so we could still handle incorporeal models.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Aug 6, 2019 20:50:01 GMT
I don’t recall anybody throwing out what seems like the most obvious solution to me. Disallow the stone, then put in a theme benefit along the lines of “FF battle engines and warbeasts get ___” where ___ is either a flat +2 ARM or Unyielding if that seemed to strong. Whether the Warlock also gets the bonus would depend on playtesting. This would let us run a wildly different playstyle, but it does have a disadvantage in that I think it takes out our only fix for stealth. Sorcerers can add magic weapon to units so we could still handle incorporeal models. I think unyielding is a better solution. Unlimited stone for all of your beast + free whelps is begging for battlegroup cheese. I like your idea, though. Is anyone up for actually testing these ideas in their groups and reporting the results?
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Aug 6, 2019 23:43:04 GMT
I don’t recall anybody throwing out what seems like the most obvious solution to me. Disallow the stone, then put in a theme benefit along the lines of “FF battle engines and warbeasts get ___” where ___ is either a flat +2 ARM or Unyielding if that seemed to strong. Whether the Warlock also gets the bonus would depend on playtesting. This would let us run a wildly different playstyle, but it does have a disadvantage in that I think it takes out our only fix for stealth. Sorcerers can add magic weapon to units so we could still handle incorporeal models. I think unyielding is a better solution. Unlimited stone for all of your beast + free whelps is begging for battlegroup cheese. I like your idea, though. Is anyone up for actually testing these ideas in their groups and reporting the results? Alas I feel it's hopeless. I posted this original post on the Facebook group and Faye from the PP balance team responded. They where pretty dismissive of the whole suggestion tbh, which I think is a shame, but we have no idea what they have planned.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Aug 7, 2019 2:10:15 GMT
I think unyielding is a better solution. Unlimited stone for all of your beast + free whelps is begging for battlegroup cheese. I like your idea, though. Is anyone up for actually testing these ideas in their groups and reporting the results? Alas I feel it's hopeless. I posted this original post on the Facebook group and Faye from the PP balance team responded. They where pretty dismissive of the whole suggestion tbh, which I think is a shame, but we have no idea what they have planned. I have the dubious privilege of living in a country in which PP has zero presence and in which most miniature communities are dead as doornails, so I view most of PP's guidelines as suggestions rather than rules. Fits with the national spirit, too. We've been playing around with homebrewed / modified stats for a while now. Even if PP never acknowledge it, I really want to try some custom KC modules just to see what kind of results you can get.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Aug 7, 2019 6:46:11 GMT
I don't think anything along those lines is going to happen.
What I'm curious about is what people are doing to get something out of this special rule. Is it just whelps or is there a way to send real solos ahead for that +2 without throwing X times 4+ points? Maybe to take out a flank? I guess someone like Kolgrima can facilitate that, shielding said flank with clouds.
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Post by anoddman on Aug 7, 2019 6:49:29 GMT
True the theme definitely opened up, which is a verey good thing. I allways thought not having access to a mauler was big fault in the theme. But... themes across the game opened up like that, it's not a benefit that's specific to this un, neither is having access to boomhowler2 (which is indeed a cool solo). But what new bonus ìs specific about the theme? It feels like it comes with a 4 point tax to even make use of it. Having said that I agree it's too early to really tell. Just thinking out loud here. I just have my one or two Grim2 lists so have a very restricted view. Sadly for me it gets nothing out of this beside the point drop on bushwhackers. Which is cool, it allows me to switch min pyg tunnelers for sluggers. I mean, having access to Boomhowler2 AND a Minion solo is specific to Kriel Company. And considering we didn't have him before the theme update, he's for all intents and purposes a new bonus to Kriel Company. Repo 3" on Highwaymen, Sluggers or a Bomber are all examples of models that suddenly play very differently. Highwaymen can space back out after all crowding in on a heavy, Sluggers can end up 13" away from what they just shot at, a Bomber can potentially get another round of shooting in, etc. People throw around the word 'tax' too much. If you're playing a Bomber, chances are you were thinking about taking Whelps anyway. In addition to Fury management, you can now give yourself a RAT 7 Bomber which is huge. And yeah, themes are opening up across the board. That doesn't mean it isn't going to completely reshape the way we think about Kriel Company. Bomber, Mauler, Earthborn will probably be my go-to battlegroup for awhile in KC which wasn't remotely possible before. Suddenly having a solid core of Troll heavies at the center of your list can give KC some staying power it just didn't have before. Man, just the thought of a Ragnor beast brick flanked by two War Wagons is plain nasty. Deals with wide scenarios and Ambushing models pretty well too.
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Post by anoddman on Aug 7, 2019 6:53:26 GMT
I don't think anything along those lines is going to happen. What I'm curious about is what people are doing to get something out of this special rule. Is it just whelps or is there a way to send real solos ahead for that +2 without throwing X times 4+ points? Maybe to take out a flank? I guess someone like Kolgrima can facilitate that, shielding said flank with clouds. Until Pyg Tanks come out, Whelps are the best option. I'd happily trade a .8 point model to make sure my Bomber can tag that Warpwolf or that my Sluggers can get those couple extra hits on Tharn Ravagers. Anything else is back/midline support that probably won't be marking target until some late game turn or Braylen who's just a sad, sad solo.
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Post by moridamn on Aug 7, 2019 10:57:39 GMT
Speaking of pyg tanks, do we have any idea on when they are coming?
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Aug 7, 2019 11:15:20 GMT
Speaking of pyg tanks, do we have any idea on when they are coming? All I heard was they hoped to have Tank and Dhunian Archon out by end of the year.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Aug 7, 2019 11:54:09 GMT
Why should any solution for armour be fair? It can't be balanced to require 9-12pts in every theme but KC gets most of the same bonus without restriction or counter play for free? And all Beasts cost the same? Ain't happening.
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