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Post by auraco on Aug 8, 2019 11:04:23 GMT
I think the main thing that is restricting khador at the moment is the hard time we have teching against gunlines. Vlad2 Wolves can be dropped in just about anything else, and wolves in general is pretty good into melee build, which are very popular these days.
Having shield guard, or at least quality shield guards, in khador had always been difficult, our new theme change that, warrior of the old faith has the initiates and they are great shield guards (also way cheaper than a rager) and flame in the dark just has so many shield guard option, going from the cheap battle priest shield guard to the more durable gallant and morrowan archon. I'm hoping these theme help us play into gunlines. The battlepriest shield guard combined with vengeance might actually be pretty great into gunlines.
Side note, I really hate refering to prey as a strait up +2 damage buff, because there is no way it's always going to be on. The croes might be an interesting option with OW2, curse of shadow might help facilitate some backstabing to happen, I'm just not convinced why you'd want to run her in Jaws of all theme, especially now that all our theme can run jack heavy.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 8, 2019 16:32:11 GMT
I think the main thing that is restricting khador at the moment is the hard time we have teching against gunlines. Vlad2 Wolves can be dropped in just about anything else, and wolves in general is pretty good into melee build, which are very popular these days. Having shield guard, or at least quality shield guards, in khador had always been difficult, our new theme change that, warrior of the old faith has the initiates and they are great shield guards (also way cheaper than a rager) and flame in the dark just has so many shield guard option, going from the cheap battle priest shield guard to the more durable gallant and morrowan archon. I'm hoping these theme help us play into gunlines. The battlepriest shield guard combined with vengeance might actually be pretty great into gunlines. Side note, I really hate refering to prey as a strait up +2 damage buff, because there is no way it's always going to be on. The croes might be an interesting option with OW2, curse of shadow might help facilitate some backstabing to happen, I'm just not convinced why you'd want to run her in Jaws of all theme, especially now that all our theme can run jack heavy. Could NOT agree more - especially in flames with a Hurricane. I REALLY think it allows you to play Zerkova 1 aggressively which then, in turn, allows you to really push forward to stop not only shots but sprays. Proper spacing SHOULD provide good vengeance opportunities. Thorne on a horse with his Tough battle cry (and no knock down) should further provide an opportunity for the Precursor knights to get to where they need to be. The other thing I am considering is SOME sort of Vlad3 build in old faith (just not set until some field testing on the right mix of Cav). WIth 9 initiates you can pretty much make the horses invulnerable to single shots. I think you have to take Vengers over the Uhlans if you are building that way - since you can get them up to ARM 20 with battle driven and do NOT have to B2B (thus providing you better options against Sprays. Throw in the Judicator for double HoF, a choir and I think you are golden - especially, perhaps, if you thrown in Hand of Silence to collect souls from any Vengers that die. Problem? I don't OWN vengers and I hate to keep spending hundreds to chase new "out of faction" lists ;-). That said, I am going to play a "poor mans" version of it with Uhlands and pony girls - I know it isn't good into sprays but I want to see how it fairs before writing it off entirely. Probably just pass on the +2 arm and spread out.
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Post by auraco on Aug 8, 2019 16:55:23 GMT
Warrior of the old faith can take double menite archon, who are kinda interesting into crucible guard, they are practically immune to all their debuffs, not being living or construct, with swift vengeance they can hold back for something else to trigger vengeance and still have a fairly good threat range, hitting power and durability. Not sure I'd go for the tripple initiates since we have to pay them unlike faithfull masses. And 21 points is starting to get expansive for that, altough I would clearly rather pay 21 points for 9 initiates over 20 points for two ragers...
Sand, are you a fan of the hurricane with Zerkova1 only because of the arc node, or is there something else I'm not seeing.
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Post by jonnyboy on Aug 8, 2019 17:34:23 GMT
Warrior of the old faith can take double menite archon, who are kinda interesting into crucible guard, they are practically immune to all their debuffs, not being living or construct, with swift vengeance they can hold back for something else to trigger vengeance and still have a fairly good threat range, hitting power and durability. Not sure I'd go for the tripple initiates since we have to pay them unlike faithfull masses. And 21 points is starting to get expansive for that, altough I would clearly rather pay 21 points for 9 initiates over 20 points for two ragers... Sand, are you a fan of the hurricane with Zerkova1 only because of the arc node, or is there something else I'm not seeing. Same boat concerning the hurricane. Gallant + lancer seems solid. Shield guard, arc node, decent watcher. Hurricane has a cute slam, but only works on small/med based models. But maybe there is something im not seeing.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 8, 2019 18:08:45 GMT
WHy Hurricane is so good (and it took me a while, in the true Talmudic reading that is Warmachine rules interaction to figure it out....) BESIDES the arc node
1) Watcher: Once per turn when an enemy model advances and ends it movement within 6 inchs of the spellcaster you can choose a warjack in the spellcaster's battlegroup that is in ts control range. That warjack can immediately make a full advance toward the enemy model [san- irrelevant since COls can not move in this fashion] and then can make one basic melee OR RANGED attack targetting the enemy model (my emphasis). The attack and damage rolls against that model are boosted.
2) Hurricane's Storm emitter it is RAT 6 so can hit with decent percentages effective def 16 (RNG 12 and Pow 16): "Thundercharge: A small or medium based model without immunity: elecricity hit by this attack is SLAMMED (my emphasis) D3 directly away from this model.....In addition to suffering a normal damage roll, large-based models wihtou IMmunity: Electric hit by this attack become KNOCKED DOWN (my emphasis).
In OTHER WORDS, you can now with relatively safety (yes, you COULD miss. Sucks to be us.) move Zerkova far enough forward to be within walking range of something that could kill her on feat turn. Yes. You have the -2 to hit clouds to make it harder....against her natural Def 15....but sometimes that isn't going to save you when you are ARM 15/16 boxes.
But now sports fans, if they do that your hurricane shoots them....and probably 80% of the things in the game are getting slammed or knocked down. Good times ;-). I completely understand and appreciate the "shooting into combat" issues here.
BTW - yes. You can get a similar sort of interaction with Juggers but you gotta crit. Sometimes that doesn't happen.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Aug 8, 2019 18:35:38 GMT
Was about to say. The Hurricane's gun knocks down large bases. So it shuts down everything sans colossals (and knocdown/slam immune models ofc). Maybe you oversaw that.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 8, 2019 19:21:02 GMT
Warrior of the old faith can take double menite archon, who are kinda interesting into crucible guard, they are practically immune to all their debuffs, not being living or construct, with swift vengeance they can hold back for something else to trigger vengeance and still have a fairly good threat range, hitting power and durability. Not sure I'd go for the tripple initiates since we have to pay them unlike faithfull masses. And 21 points is starting to get expansive for that, altough I would clearly rather pay 21 points for 9 initiates over 20 points for two ragers... Sand, are you a fan of the hurricane with Zerkova1 only because of the arc node, or is there something else I'm not seeing. Good call. Pow 17/15 under S&P Archons (I am assuming R. Fury) should "Leave a mark" on a bunch of CG things. Being not living and fire immune provides some help on the way in. Ditto Ashen Veil. Costed I think appropriately at 8 points....they will have some places in Warriors but not overwhelming. And unless I am mistaken (hehe) you can go ahead and double S&P - putting hand of fate on them which would stack with Divine Inspiration ;-)
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Aug 9, 2019 4:56:23 GMT
I’ve been out for a while, but slowly building interest again in playing. I’ve been following several of the Khador threads and like several of the changes, especially the pathfinder on our jacks in Jaws. I threw together a list using my favorite models, and I think it has legs, but not sure really?
War Room Army
Khador - Sorscha1Jaws Obliv
Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 75 / 75 Army
Kommander Sorscha - WJ: +29 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4 - Grolar - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11)
Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 4 - Behemoth - PC: 25 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 4 Kovnik Andrei Malakov - PC: 4 - Marauder - PC: 11 Yuri the Axe - PC: 0 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 4 Manhunter - PC: 4 Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios - PC: 7
Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 0 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 0
THEME: Jaws of the Wolf
The idea is to use, ideally, plentiful forests to help with the approach and give Yuri and the Manhunter opportunities to be MVPs. The snipers are there to help with tough things and plink away at jacks. The eliminators are a great melee missile, especially if a caster is frozen or knocked down, and like wise good for tough opponents. Eiryss is always good fun with S1. Behemoth under forge seers to take some responsibility off of Sorscha and keep up the ranged threat. Malakov for a potential extra long range Marauder attack. And finally the Grolar for dual attack and knock down goodness. What do you guys think? Btw the Grolar and Beat are the same points, and while I love Beast09, I thought I would get much more utility out of the Grolar with his knock down hammer and his gun etc.
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Post by chickenslayer on Aug 9, 2019 5:45:22 GMT
Hey, chickenslayer , is Khador a "hot mess"? You gonna stand for that crapola? Regarding Jaws, my top go to has been, in order, Karchev, Vlad 1, and Butcher 3. I think I can make the argument for Vlad over Karchev with a good shooting list just for the 14" threat on the jacks (although I'm really liking him Jack heavy in WGK). Meh, I've had to stand for this for 6 years and the tone literally has never changed. It's usually one flavour or another of how terrible the faction is. Right now it is how the faction that has good armour values independent of spells, excellent threat ranges and one of the cheapest tools to counter battle engines cannot beat Battle Engines
So no, usual Git Gud white noise to me.
In other news, Butcher 3 Jaws is pretty fun, thought not 100% sure it's better than WGK Butcher. Feels a bit of a wash, depends on matchup I suppose. Speaking of which I'm also not 100% sure what matchups Butcher 3 covers himself in general, the caster is such a wild card
Turns out also he appreciates the Hermit or Alexia 2
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Aug 9, 2019 8:44:39 GMT
Dave - would be interested in seeing your list. Hi Sand, This is my current set up, though it's work in progress: Irusk2 +27 -Greylord Adjunct -4 -Behemoth -25 -Juggernaut -13 Greylord Forge Seer -4 -Destroyer -14 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff -4 -Marauder -11 Saxon Orrik -4 Widowmaker Marksman -4 Yuri the Axe -0(5) Kayazy Assassins (Max) -15 -Underboss -4 Kayazy Eliminators -0(5) Kayazy Eliminators -0(5) The basis of the list is the same as it was when I originally started playing Irusk2 Jaws: Fire For Effect on the destroyer, then the forge seer tops up Behemoth. Now you have the adjunct to make the upkeep free and to hand out Guidance as needed. Also you now have Sorscha0 to help with threat ranges (combines well with Energizer). Depending on what match ups this ends up dropped into the marauder and juggernaut would swap round based on which needs the threat range. I think there's still some fiddling to be done with the infantry set up too, but I'm still playing around. Kossites would be nice for distant scenario zones and flags (Yuri already being in the list is handy for them) and some widowakers would be good too. They do a good job of mopping up what the AoEs leave. But need to play around a bit. Minimizing the assassins is tempting, which might mean Saxon isn't needed. Minimizing the assassins, dropping Saxon and dropping an eliminator unit frees up points for both kossites and widowmakers, but need to test first. Cheers, Dave
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Post by sand20go on Aug 9, 2019 13:59:04 GMT
Dave - would be interested in seeing your list. Hi Sand, This is my current set up, though it's work in progress: Irusk2 +27 -Greylord Adjunct -4 -Behemoth -25 -Juggernaut -13 Greylord Forge Seer -4 -Destroyer -14 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff -4 -Marauder -11 Saxon Orrik -4 Widowmaker Marksman -4 Yuri the Axe -0(5) Kayazy Assassins (Max) -15 -Underboss -4 Kayazy Eliminators -0(5) Kayazy Eliminators -0(5) The basis of the list is the same as it was when I originally started playing Irusk2 Jaws: Fire For Effect on the destroyer, then the forge seer tops up Behemoth. Now you have the adjunct to make the upkeep free and to hand out Guidance as needed. Also you now have Sorscha0 to help with threat ranges (combines well with Energizer). Depending on what match ups this ends up dropped into the marauder and juggernaut would swap round based on which needs the threat range. I think there's still some fiddling to be done with the infantry set up too, but I'm still playing around. Kossites would be nice for distant scenario zones and flags (Yuri already being in the list is handy for them) and some widowakers would be good too. They do a good job of mopping up what the AoEs leave. But need to play around a bit. Minimizing the assassins is tempting, which might mean Saxon isn't needed. Minimizing the assassins, dropping Saxon and dropping an eliminator unit frees up points for both kossites and widowmakers, but need to test first. Cheers, Dave Like that!! Are you getting value of energizing in and out of your places forest with the shooting Jack's? That would seems viable.
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