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Post by hocestbellum on Aug 6, 2019 19:44:09 GMT
Also, not a fan of the Sorscha plan. Using a feat, a spell, and a unit to take out some absolute chaff models is a massive waste of resources. Just shoot them normally, or boost the Freezing Grip. In a situation like that, I'd recommend not feating. As long as you have your feat, he has to be wary of your 17-19" non-linear murder range. You can literally one-shot Syvestro with the charge attack.
You can one shot Syvestro likely ANYWAY AFTER the feat. WIth IH you are NOT shooting him even if frozen (stupid rule). You can't freeze the raillesses. Freezing the jacks is nice because it hurts focus efficiency but is sorta a bonus rather than a feature and at DEF 11 you don't REALLY need to do that to hit them. What you want to do is freeze the Halbies - whose job is a LOT more than chaff - they are there to contest so that the Railless and the SUpressor (and the arc node) DON"T have to. Freeze them and quickly and efficiency eliminate them (remember, no activation and thus no Mosby buffs and thus not tough any longer). In case I wasn't clear, I meant for Sorscha1 to personally go and cave his skull in. No ranged attacks needed, although I guess if he decided to use a free spell or super fuel you could still lob some his way. She's an excellent assassin, and if he's worried about blocking my charge lanes then I'm dictating his positioning. I don't want to freeze the Halberdiers with my feat; I want to win the game with it. I can freeze the Halbardiers with a spell. I can kill them without any recourse to my warcaster. That is an 11 point unit at the end of the day; it's never worth a feat. Also, Stationary units still activate; they removed that clause in the Mk3 rules, so they can still use Moseby's abilities. But all in all, we're arguing at cross purposes here. My point was that I felt Jaws is perfectly acceptable into gunlines, and has the tech to deal with a lot of annoying stuff. Your point is that Juris would kick my ass with CG. Both of these are probably true! But it doesn't make either of us wrong. (Except about the stationary-activation thing. Pg61 of the rules)
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Aug 6, 2019 21:02:04 GMT
Well the Retaliator can remove clouds. Go ask "Alyce". What the wise man said. The wise man just posed me a riddle near tree by a river in a hole in the ground. Wasn't helpful. (I wonder if our reference enthusiasts can solve this one.)
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Post by sand20go on Aug 6, 2019 21:08:09 GMT
Also, not a fan of the Sorscha plan. Using a feat, a spell, and a unit to take out some absolute chaff models is a massive waste of resources. Just shoot them normally, or boost the Freezing Grip. In a situation like that, I'd recommend not feating. As long as you have your feat, he has to be wary of your 17-19" non-linear murder range. You can literally one-shot Syvestro with the charge attack.
You can one shot Syvestro likely ANYWAY AFTER the feat. WIth IH you are NOT shooting him even if frozen (stupid rule). You can't freeze the raillesses. Freezing the jacks is nice because it hurts focus efficiency but is sorta a bonus rather than a feature and at DEF 11 you don't REALLY need to do that to hit them. What you want to do is freeze the Halbies - whose job is a LOT more than chaff - they are there to contest so that the Railless and the SUpressor (and the arc node) DON"T have to. Freeze them and quickly and efficiency eliminate them (remember, no activation and thus no Mosby buffs and thus not tough any longer). In case I wasn't clear, I meant for Sorscha1 to personally go and cave his skull in. No ranged attacks needed, although I guess if he decided to use a free spell or super fuel you could still lob some his way. She's an excellent assassin, and if he's worried about blocking my charge lanes then I'm dictating his positioning. I don't want to freeze the Halberdiers with my feat; I want to win the game with it. I can freeze the Halbardiers with a spell. I can kill them without any recourse to my warcaster. That is an 11 point unit at the end of the day; it's never worth a feat. Also, Stationary units still activate; they removed that clause in the Mk3 rules, so they can still use Moseby's abilities. But all in all, we're arguing at cross purposes here. My point was that I felt Jaws is perfectly acceptable into gunlines, and has the tech to deal with a lot of annoying stuff. Your point is that Juris would kick my ass with CG. Both of these are probably true! But it doesn't make either of us wrong. (Except about the stationary-activation thing. Pg61 of the rules)The sorscha run "post" feat is harder but I think still works. I will assume "worst case" and that Sy is between 17 and 19 away. Wind Rush Boundless charge Charge Boost to Hit (MAT 6 vs. Def 15 or 9+ critical) -> 30% chance to crit Buy You are looking at a 6.5% BEFORE figuring the critical. Goes SIGNIFICANT up if you land the critical. If you can avoid BC your odds WITHOUT critical go up to about 25%. Thanks for the catch on Stationary. So anytime effects can work, other things can not. Boy king for the day I am getting rid and rebalancing that. Just make them bloody star actions and if you need to rework so they can do it while running do that. It just gets way too fiddly
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Post by hocestbellum on Aug 6, 2019 21:44:56 GMT
Go ask "Alyce". What the wise man said. The wise man just posed me a riddle near tree by a river in a hole in the ground. Wasn't helpful. (I wonder if our reference enthusiasts can solve this one.) Couldn't say ker shaw. That riddle's got me going round and around...
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Post by hocestbellum on Aug 6, 2019 22:09:03 GMT
In case I wasn't clear, I meant for Sorscha1 to personally go and cave his skull in. No ranged attacks needed, although I guess if he decided to use a free spell or super fuel you could still lob some his way. She's an excellent assassin, and if he's worried about blocking my charge lanes then I'm dictating his positioning. I don't want to freeze the Halberdiers with my feat; I want to win the game with it. I can freeze the Halbardiers with a spell. I can kill them without any recourse to my warcaster. That is an 11 point unit at the end of the day; it's never worth a feat. Also, Stationary units still activate; they removed that clause in the Mk3 rules, so they can still use Moseby's abilities. But all in all, we're arguing at cross purposes here. My point was that I felt Jaws is perfectly acceptable into gunlines, and has the tech to deal with a lot of annoying stuff. Your point is that Juris would kick my ass with CG. Both of these are probably true! But it doesn't make either of us wrong. (Except about the stationary-activation thing. Pg61 of the rules)The sorscha run "post" feat is harder but I think still works. I will assume "worst case" and that Sy is between 17 and 19 away. Wind Rush Boundless charge Charge Boost to Hit (MAT 6 vs. Def 15 or 9+ critical) -> 30% chance to crit Buy You are looking at a 6.5% BEFORE figuring the critical. Goes SIGNIFICANT up if you land the critical. If you can avoid BC your odds WITHOUT critical go up to about 25%. Thanks for the catch on Stationary. So anytime effects can work, other things can not. Boy king for the day I am getting rid and rebalancing that. Just make them bloody star actions and if you need to rework so they can do it while running do that. It just gets way too fiddly Yeah, the stationary stuff is a bit odd. Also, you can't give orders but you can still receive and benefit from them, so an unfrozen commander can order his popsicles to shield wall, for example. I'm only up on it because I play Sorscha so often. There's some odd interactions worth checking with her, specifically for Freezing Grip. For example, (and I long for the day I pull this off) it's possible to freeze a cold immune unit if they have an attachment which is not immune to cold i.e. Northkin Raiders in Kriel Company with a Sorcerer. Additionally, if you freeze a unit of Banes with Freezing Grip, whilst they can use Void Bringer to return some grunts, those grunts also become stationary. I have pulled that one off, and it's great. With the Sorscha1 Assassination run, I think your calcs are based on him not camping any focus? If you get on to him with the feat and no BC, you have an 83% chance to kill him through a full camp. If you have to cast Boundless Charge it drops to 40% through the full camp. Numbers like that are why I'll often try to save a feat like Sorscha's or Strakhov's: as long as I've got the feat, there's a chance I can pounce on you.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 6, 2019 22:32:55 GMT
The sorscha run "post" feat is harder but I think still works. I will assume "worst case" and that Sy is between 17 and 19 away. Wind Rush Boundless charge Charge Boost to Hit (MAT 6 vs. Def 15 or 9+ critical) -> 30% chance to crit Buy You are looking at a 6.5% BEFORE figuring the critical. Goes SIGNIFICANT up if you land the critical. If you can avoid BC your odds WITHOUT critical go up to about 25%. Thanks for the catch on Stationary. So anytime effects can work, other things can not. Boy king for the day I am getting rid and rebalancing that. Just make them bloody star actions and if you need to rework so they can do it while running do that. It just gets way too fiddly Yeah, the stationary stuff is a bit odd. Also, you can't give orders but you can still receive and benefit from them, so an unfrozen commander can order his popsicles to shield wall, for example. I'm only up on it because I play Sorscha so often. There's some odd interactions worth checking with her, specifically for Freezing Grip. For example, (and I long for the day I pull this off) it's possible to freeze a cold immune unit if they have an attachment which is not immune to cold i.e. Northkin Raiders in Kriel Company with a Sorcerer. Additionally, if you freeze a unit of Banes with Freezing Grip, whilst they can use Void Bringer to return some grunts, those grunts also become stationary. I have pulled that one off, and it's great. With the Sorscha1 Assassination run, I think your calcs are based on him not camping any focus? If you get on to him with the feat and no BC, you have an 83% chance to kill him through a full camp. If you have to cast Boundless Charge it drops to 40% through the full camp. Numbers like that are why I'll often try to save a feat like Sorscha's or Strakhov's: as long as I've got the feat, there's a chance I can pounce on you. Absolutely! But I also think that a lot of sorscha players hold their feats for too long. Our meta is essentially a meta in which everyone plays for scenario and really the first (second and third) questions are "What is your max threat range?" people then use customized sticks to measure that out EVERY turn - to a mm. And then say "well I am SLIGHTLY more than 19 inches away - "math says" you can't hit me".
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Post by jonnyboy on Aug 6, 2019 23:12:08 GMT
Yeah, the stationary stuff is a bit odd. Also, you can't give orders but you can still receive and benefit from them, so an unfrozen commander can order his popsicles to shield wall, for example. I'm only up on it because I play Sorscha so often. There's some odd interactions worth checking with her, specifically for Freezing Grip. For example, (and I long for the day I pull this off) it's possible to freeze a cold immune unit if they have an attachment which is not immune to cold i.e. Northkin Raiders in Kriel Company with a Sorcerer. Additionally, if you freeze a unit of Banes with Freezing Grip, whilst they can use Void Bringer to return some grunts, those grunts also become stationary. I have pulled that one off, and it's great. With the Sorscha1 Assassination run, I think your calcs are based on him not camping any focus? If you get on to him with the feat and no BC, you have an 83% chance to kill him through a full camp. If you have to cast Boundless Charge it drops to 40% through the full camp. Numbers like that are why I'll often try to save a feat like Sorscha's or Strakhov's: as long as I've got the feat, there's a chance I can pounce on you. Absolutely! But I also think that a lot of sorscha players hold their feats for too long. Our meta is essentially a meta in which everyone plays for scenario and really the first (second and third) questions are "What is your max threat range?" people then use customized sticks to measure that out EVERY turn - to a mm. And then say "well I am SLIGHTLY more than 19 inches away - "math says" you can't hit me". If your opponents are just staying out of threat range, just take advantage of it. Most people i play against will put themselves in threat, but make the route to their caster just hard enough that the odds go down. Now im not advocating for Sorscha in jaws or vs CG neither of those sound too hot.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Aug 7, 2019 2:05:00 GMT
Your point is that Juris would kick my ass with CG. If Juris played Storm of the North we would be discussing how Kolgrima was the most unfair thing for Khador ever.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 7, 2019 3:17:14 GMT
Your point is that Juris would kick my ass with CG. If Juris played Storm of the North we would be discussing how Kolgrima was the most unfair thing for Khador ever. I told juris that if he really was good he would win with khador. The team laughed. Tj's remark is that khador is a hot mess.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Aug 7, 2019 5:49:16 GMT
I wouldn't call Khador a hot mess, but it's definitely the only faction that actually plays by the rules.
That said, if Juris is at least as good as Chris Davies or Bubba (no reason to think otherwise), then I'm pretty sure he would still be top dog in our meta with Khador.
Also Will Rutan and Scott (when he was still with us) do/did constantly well in local events (Scott even qualified for a few masters in his time).
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Aug 7, 2019 7:10:43 GMT
Irusk2 Jaws seems to fix quite a few of those issues. Cheers, Dave Could you elaborate? Ran Irusk2 double KAs oh about 4 months ago and it was a blood bath as their lowish command means they get a bit bunched up and sprays ignore stealth. Have you played it? Might be worth revisiting in the new RQ system. Well, the concerns about trancers exploding over your assassins when you attack them is removed for a start. Also, certainly in my list, you can get a destroyer to RAT8 blessed and Guidance due to jack marshal, plus boosted due to Fire For Effect, for dealing with them at range. RAT6 without aiming, so a bit less likely to land. For the halberdiers (saw mention they don't like blast), my current build is sticking out 3 fully boosted POW14 4" AoEs every turn for 0 focus investment from Irusk. That puts a severe dent in a 10 man unit very fast. Again in my current list, Behemoth and a juggernaut (could be a marauder if wanted) have a melee threat of 12. Not quite the magic 13 everyone goes about, but enough to toe a zone and start to force an engagement. You also answer their tough no knockdown with infantry that is a) tough no knockdown itself and b) ignores tough. CMD9 from the underboss isn't particularly low, so not sure how they're bunching up much more than other infantry. I wouldn't run 2 units though, you end up stuck (and you can't really Battlelust 2 units at once anyway). With the new theme benefits, access to pathfinder on all jacks and Energizer you can make a far safer spot for Irusk and you can have jacks hide behind buildings/forests and pop out to attack. Irusk's kit is good in general and the feat should help you with the kiting a bit by either forcing things towards you pre-feat to take it into account (or you can grab scenarios fairly easily, then feat) and by letting you hide behind forests and charge through. No, I've not played the exact match up, but Irusk2 Jaws looks to have a decent amount going for it. Cheers, Dave
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Post by hocestbellum on Aug 7, 2019 8:27:09 GMT
Irusk2 Jaws seems to fix quite a few of those issues. Cheers, Dave Could you elaborate? Ran Irusk2 double KAs oh about 4 months ago and it was a blood bath as their lowish command means they get a bit bunched up and sprays ignore stealth. Have you played it? Might be worth revisiting in the new RQ system. They're CMD9 with the Underboss; that's hardly low EDIT: Oh, sorry thebuoyancyofwater ! Didn't realise you'd already pointed that out. I like your logic on the Irusk2 matchup (hell, I just like Irusk2 in all matchups).
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Post by sand20go on Aug 7, 2019 17:14:05 GMT
Could you elaborate? Ran Irusk2 double KAs oh about 4 months ago and it was a blood bath as their lowish command means they get a bit bunched up and sprays ignore stealth. Have you played it? Might be worth revisiting in the new RQ system. Well, the concerns about trancers exploding over your assassins when you attack them is removed for a start. Also, certainly in my list, you can get a destroyer to RAT8 blessed and Guidance due to jack marshal, plus boosted due to Fire For Effect, for dealing with them at range. RAT6 without aiming, so a bit less likely to land. For the halberdiers (saw mention they don't like blast), my current build is sticking out 3 fully boosted POW14 4" AoEs every turn for 0 focus investment from Irusk. That puts a severe dent in a 10 man unit very fast. Again in my current list, Behemoth and a juggernaut (could be a marauder if wanted) have a melee threat of 12. Not quite the magic 13 everyone goes about, but enough to toe a zone and start to force an engagement. You also answer their tough no knockdown with infantry that is a) tough no knockdown itself and b) ignores tough. CMD9 from the underboss isn't particularly low, so not sure how they're bunching up much more than other infantry. I wouldn't run 2 units though, you end up stuck (and you can't really Battlelust 2 units at once anyway). With the new theme benefits, access to pathfinder on all jacks and Energizer you can make a far safer spot for Irusk and you can have jacks hide behind buildings/forests and pop out to attack. Irusk's kit is good in general and the feat should help you with the kiting a bit by either forcing things towards you pre-feat to take it into account (or you can grab scenarios fairly easily, then feat) and by letting you hide behind forests and charge through. No, I've not played the exact match up, but Irusk2 Jaws looks to have a decent amount going for it. Cheers, Dave Dave - would be interested in seeing your list.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 8, 2019 1:23:53 GMT
Hey, chickenslayer, is Khador a "hot mess"? You gonna stand for that crapola? Regarding Jaws, my top go to has been, in order, Karchev, Vlad 1, and Butcher 3. I think I can make the argument for Vlad over Karchev with a good shooting list just for the 14" threat on the jacks (although I'm really liking him Jack heavy in WGK).
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Post by jonnyboy on Aug 8, 2019 2:36:19 GMT
Hey, chickenslayer, is Khador a "hot mess"? You gonna stand for that crapola? Regarding Jaws, my top go to has been, in order, Karchev, Vlad 1, and Butcher 3. I think I can make the argument for Vlad over Karchev with a good shooting list just for the 14" threat on the jacks (although I'm really liking him Jack heavy in WGK). Man im no Chickenslayer, but i definitely feel like Khador is underestimated right now. Jaws, AC, WOW, FITD, all solid B+/A- themes. Harbinger may be the only list im wary of. Is OW2 not even on your list? With the changes to JAWS and croe's i really see a good combo there. Stealth + OW2 no shooting, plus -2 armor. That's some powerful POW 14 shots with repo 5. I get this odd itch that Croe's are the infantry we need in JAWS. But Karchev is still the shining star for me.
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