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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Aug 6, 2019 11:43:50 GMT
I'm thinking of going back to my Irusk2 Jaws list to see how that runs. On first look it seems solid.
Regarding sprays: spread out?
Regards, Dave
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Post by hocestbellum on Aug 6, 2019 11:53:44 GMT
Sounds like a lot of the problems that people are having with the CG matchup isn't actually the guns but the support package; without ARM debuffs they would struggle against heavier things, without Trancers and Steelheads they would struggle to compete in scenario, and so on.
Is that something that can be leveraged tactically? Like, it's obviously going to be tricky to stop a Suppressor and its 18" threat range for Rust under Syvestro, but by definition it's 8" away after that. Trancers are immune to blasts but Steelheads and Combat Alchemists hate them. The latter especially so since we have Eyeless Sight access.
And would Jaws in general be good into gunlines? Decent spot removal from Behemoth and Widowmakers, most troops have stealth which mitigates at least some shooting, and it's the tankiest theme we've got. I always think of armour and scenario as the natural counter to gunlines.
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Post by jonnyboy on Aug 6, 2019 11:58:29 GMT
It's not jaws, but on the topic of CG, i have had good success of running AC into baldwin heavy shooting lists. CG doesnt have a good answer to clouds so the siege chariot gets great value. The CG are also very glass cannon-y so almost anything you get your hands on will fall apart. The suppression tankers are perfect answers to the flying gnats jammers.
After play karchev jaws though, i can see the list functioning pretty similarly. Lots of beef to chew through, CG is great at focusing one or two models down, but not a lot simultaneously. Adjunct gives the WMM boat good targets for RtW.
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Post by P'tit Nico on Aug 6, 2019 12:23:15 GMT
CG doesnt have a good answer to clouds Well the Retaliator can remove clouds.
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Post by jonnyboy on Aug 6, 2019 12:34:44 GMT
CG doesnt have a good answer to clouds Well the Retaliator can remove clouds. News to me! My opponent has yet to field that jack. I wonder if the jack doesn't fit into common lists all that well?
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Post by sand20go on Aug 6, 2019 15:14:00 GMT
Sounds like a lot of the problems that people are having with the CG matchup isn't actually the guns but the support package; without ARM debuffs they would struggle against heavier things, without Trancers and Steelheads they would struggle to compete in scenario, and so on. Is that something that can be leveraged tactically? Like, it's obviously going to be tricky to stop a Suppressor and its 18" threat range for Rust under Syvestro, but by definition it's 8" away after that. Trancers are immune to blasts but Steelheads and Combat Alchemists hate them. The latter especially so since we have Eyeless Sight access. And would Jaws in general be good into gunlines? Decent spot removal from Behemoth and Widowmakers, most troops have stealth which mitigates at least some shooting, and it's the tankiest theme we've got. I always think of armour and scenario as the natural counter to gunlines. Going from micro to macro 1) Yes. You are right. Blasts against the Halbies and direct shots into the trancers. You try to hope for good dice. Vlad1 helps here, cranking the effective rat into the trancers and improving your blast chances. You do what you can do. 2) Just a note about halbies. The other thing in the package is no-knock down tough. Again, overcomable (I did a tasty Hellfire with Alexia 2 recently) but it keeps them in the game. Syvestro has a random Revive if he has nothing else to spend his focus on. 3) Yes, in some senses Suppressor is a one shot. He needs to get the most work out of it as possible ONe thing to note though is that to "layer" the threat you many be a bit bunched up so it is possible to rust >two targets (with 2 sprays he will/should get 2). 4) Stealth is irrelevant into sprays. Good into the rocketmen variety but are people really seeing that these days? 5) Yes. IN the end CG is about the debuffs. Minimize/eliminate them and then the base level stats are not that scary. No boosting mechanic on the railless means it hits with pillows. The issue is that to GET at those debuffers is not trivially easy. Between take up, repo and 14 inch range it isn't hard to keep the DBRs alive. While I think Vlad1 is the best choice (still) I do wonder about S1 and an early feat. Catching the entire Halby unit with a Feat Freezing grip and then eliminating with snipers seems like a decent "plan". Ditto a trancer (or 2). Then the fight becomes tactically one which isn't bad for us....while the raillesses will do (a lot) of work under feat (cause he still has all the stuff) he HAS to come to you to a much greater degree and allow you to apply axe to face. Big issue is that she has to keep alive - constantly concerned about Syvestro's blind spell. But we do have Alexia2/orin to provide some help. May play around with that a bit and see what I can squeeze in - just sad that S0 can not come as well ;-)
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Post by sand20go on Aug 6, 2019 15:14:29 GMT
CG doesnt have a good answer to clouds Well the Retaliator can remove clouds. Go ask "Alyce". What the wise man said.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 6, 2019 15:16:37 GMT
It's not jaws, but on the topic of CG, i have had good success of running AC into baldwin heavy shooting lists. CG doesnt have a good answer to clouds so the siege chariot gets great value. The CG are also very glass cannon-y so almost anything you get your hands on will fall apart. The suppression tankers are perfect answers to the flying gnats jammers. After play karchev jaws though, i can see the list functioning pretty similarly. Lots of beef to chew through, CG is great at focusing one or two models down, but not a lot simultaneously. Adjunct gives the WMM boat good targets for RtW. I am not convinced that Baldwin is a very good caster. Our CG players almost exclusively play Syvestro (POW buff under feat) and Locke (who will eat Karchev for breakfast the moment he gets within 16 inches of anything she can redline/run/jackhammer him into the ground.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 6, 2019 15:42:54 GMT
Decent players may not see that play (trancer gets ride of shield guard; Transmutation to drop def, DBR to debuff. Spray for days). But I can assure you Juris will. And thus the question - what is your meta and what is the skill level of your players. I don't mean to be rude, but "knock the shield guard down then apply debuffs" isn't really a high-level play. That's pretty standard. The point is that one shield guard is not going to save Butcher. You will either need redundancy or....more likely WGI so you can sac pawn off the shot.
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Post by hocestbellum on Aug 6, 2019 17:13:56 GMT
Going from micro to macro 1) Yes. You are right. Blasts against the Halbies and direct shots into the trancers. You try to hope for good dice. Vlad1 helps here, cranking the effective rat into the trancers and improving your blast chances. You do what you can do. 2) Just a note about halbies. The other thing in the package is no-knock down tough. Again, overcomable (I did a tasty Hellfire with Alexia 2 recently) but it keeps them in the game. Syvestro has a random Revive if he has nothing else to spend his focus on. 3) Yes, in some senses Suppressor is a one shot. He needs to get the most work out of it as possible ONe thing to note though is that to "layer" the threat you many be a bit bunched up so it is possible to rust >two targets (with 2 sprays he will/should get 2). 4) Stealth is irrelevant into sprays. Good into the rocketmen variety but are people really seeing that these days? 5) Yes. IN the end CG is about the debuffs. Minimize/eliminate them and then the base level stats are not that scary. No boosting mechanic on the railless means it hits with pillows. The issue is that to GET at those debuffers is not trivially easy. Between take up, repo and 14 inch range it isn't hard to keep the DBRs alive. While I think Vlad1 is the best choice (still) I do wonder about S1 and an early feat. Catching the entire Halby unit with a Feat Freezing grip and then eliminating with snipers seems like a decent "plan". Ditto a trancer (or 2). Then the fight becomes tactically one which isn't bad for us....while the raillesses will do (a lot) of work under feat (cause he still has all the stuff) he HAS to come to you to a much greater degree and allow you to apply axe to face. Big issue is that she has to keep alive - constantly concerned about Syvestro's blind spell. But we do have Alexia2/orin to provide some help. May play around with that a bit and see what I can squeeze in - just sad that S0 can not come as well ;-) Always so negative! Stealth is irrelevant, halbardiers are too tough, hope for the best on the Trancers... Or, to look at it another way: Halbies no-KD tough is completely irrelevant against Widowmakers and Kayazy. And whilst the Kayazy can be killed by sprays, in your specific example you're talking about Railless and Suppressors on Syvestro. The Railless needs 7s to hit them, the Suppressor needs 8s. That's a 58% or 42% chance to hit (bang average), or an 80% or 68% under feat. But if he's using his feat and the only major threats in his army to deal with my Kayazy, well I'm calling that a win. Especially as his sprays are RNG8. Trancers can be a pain, but a unit of Widowmakers has a 41% chance to take one out without aiming whilst it's in concealment. It's almost double that if they can aim. Sure, if they're in cover it's not worth the effort, but teching hard to deal with a DEF19 anomaly seems silly. Also, Trancers almost aren't a threat to Kayazy. They need 11s to hit them, (which is non-trivial even with mental force), they can't tie up the Kayazy because they have Parry, and a single Kayazy has an excellent chance to kill a Trancer. And yes, I'm sure that you (or Juris, rather) can come up with counterpoints to these things, but there will exist counters to those counters, and so on and so forth. If you've gotten yourself into a mindset of 'I'm going to lose because of X' then you'll probably lose. Keep your chin up, and keep fighting the good fight! Also, not a fan of the Sorscha plan. Using a feat, a spell, and a unit to take out some absolute chaff models is a massive waste of resources. Just shoot them normally, or boost the Freezing Grip. In a situation like that, I'd recommend not feating. As long as you have your feat, he has to be wary of your 17-19" non-linear murder range. You can literally one-shot Syvestro with the charge attack.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 6, 2019 17:58:46 GMT
Going from micro to macro 1) Yes. You are right. Blasts against the Halbies and direct shots into the trancers. You try to hope for good dice. Vlad1 helps here, cranking the effective rat into the trancers and improving your blast chances. You do what you can do. 2) Just a note about halbies. The other thing in the package is no-knock down tough. Again, overcomable (I did a tasty Hellfire with Alexia 2 recently) but it keeps them in the game. Syvestro has a random Revive if he has nothing else to spend his focus on. 3) Yes, in some senses Suppressor is a one shot. He needs to get the most work out of it as possible ONe thing to note though is that to "layer" the threat you many be a bit bunched up so it is possible to rust >two targets (with 2 sprays he will/should get 2). 4) Stealth is irrelevant into sprays. Good into the rocketmen variety but are people really seeing that these days? 5) Yes. IN the end CG is about the debuffs. Minimize/eliminate them and then the base level stats are not that scary. No boosting mechanic on the railless means it hits with pillows. The issue is that to GET at those debuffers is not trivially easy. Between take up, repo and 14 inch range it isn't hard to keep the DBRs alive. While I think Vlad1 is the best choice (still) I do wonder about S1 and an early feat. Catching the entire Halby unit with a Feat Freezing grip and then eliminating with snipers seems like a decent "plan". Ditto a trancer (or 2). Then the fight becomes tactically one which isn't bad for us....while the raillesses will do (a lot) of work under feat (cause he still has all the stuff) he HAS to come to you to a much greater degree and allow you to apply axe to face. Big issue is that she has to keep alive - constantly concerned about Syvestro's blind spell. But we do have Alexia2/orin to provide some help. May play around with that a bit and see what I can squeeze in - just sad that S0 can not come as well ;-) You guys need to play more against high level CG players. It is a sobering experience ;-) Always so negative! Stealth is irrelevant, halbardiers are too tough, hope for the best on the Trancers... Or, to look at it another way: Halbies no-KD tough is completely irrelevant against Widowmakers and Kayazy. And whilst the Kayazy can be killed by sprays, in your specific example you're talking about Railless and Suppressors on Syvestro. The Railless needs 7s to hit them, the Suppressor needs 8s. That's a 58% or 42% chance to hit (bang average), or an 80% or 68% under feat. But if he's using his feat and the only major threats in his army to deal with my Kayazy, well I'm calling that a win. Especially as his sprays are RNG8.Railesses are Spray 10 on the Antimanator. Spray 8 on the Flame thrower. So it is important to get things right. That 10 inch spray means that absent speed buff the Raillesses don't even need to back up after spraying down some front range dudes. Random Cannon at AOE 4 to knock out some others and with Alyce eyeless sight. Trancers can be a pain, but a unit of Widowmakers has a 41% chance to take one out without aiming whilst it's in concealment. It's almost double that if they can aim. Sure, if they're in cover it's not worth the effort, but teching hard to deal with a DEF19 anomaly seems silly.Also, Trancers almost aren't a threat to Kayazy. They need 11s to hit them, (which is non-trivial even with mental force), they can't tie up the Kayazy because they have Parry, and a single Kayazy has an excellent chance to kill a Trancer.FANTASTIC that you sent hopefully 2+ Kayazy in to kill that trancer. You know what is happening when you do that. It is going to get blown up. You know what I am going to do if you DIDn'T blow it up....I am going to position it in a way to be particularly irritating and blow it up myself, costing me a 3 point model and hopefully taking out 3+ Kayazy in the blast. And yes, I'm sure that you (or Juris, rather) can come up with counterpoints to these things, but there will exist counters to those counters, and so on and so forth.
This is not a negative screed...but I am going to continue to point out that I have played JAWS (and AK) into this match up too many times in 2019 to count. As above - I completely agree against "normal" CG players it works. Against (I guess by IG points) the number 2 player in the country your mileage will vary. Good job on that Juris (BTW) Also, not a fan of the Sorscha plan. Using a feat, a spell, and a unit to take out some absolute chaff models is a massive waste of resources. Just shoot them normally, or boost the Freezing Grip. In a situation like that, I'd recommend not feating. As long as you have your feat, he has to be wary of your 17-19" non-linear murder range. You can literally one-shot Syvestro with the charge attack.
You can one shot Syvestro likely ANYWAY AFTER the feat. WIth IH you are NOT shooting him even if frozen (stupid rule). You can't freeze the raillesses. Freezing the jacks is nice because it hurts focus efficiency but is sorta a bonus rather than a feature and at DEF 11 you don't REALLY need to do that to hit them. What you want to do is freeze the Halbies - whose job is a LOT more than chaff - they are there to contest so that the Railless and the SUpressor (and the arc node) DON"T have to. Freeze them and quickly and efficiency eliminate them (remember, no activation and thus no Mosby buffs and thus not tough any longer).
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Aug 6, 2019 18:36:55 GMT
Irusk2 Jaws seems to fix quite a few of those issues.
Cheers, Dave
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Aug 6, 2019 18:43:58 GMT
Decent players may not see that play (trancer gets ride of shield guard; Transmutation to drop def, DBR to debuff. Spray for days). But I can assure you Juris will. And thus the question - what is your meta and what is the skill level of your players. I don't mean to be rude, but "knock the shield guard down then apply debuffs" isn't really a high-level play. That's pretty standard. Yup, I was going to comment that it doesn't sound like any of those things are solved in list building.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 6, 2019 19:16:15 GMT
I don't mean to be rude, but "knock the shield guard down then apply debuffs" isn't really a high-level play. That's pretty standard. Yup, I was going to comment that it doesn't sound like any of those things are solved in list building. You can protect Butcher with 3 shield guards (or 2 live Sac Pawns). Given positioning you may not need more than 2 (because while hiding from one DBR is hard it isn't hard to hide from 2 of them. You need one to accept the trancer charge (assuming you are dealing with three of them)
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Post by sand20go on Aug 6, 2019 19:18:13 GMT
Irusk2 Jaws seems to fix quite a few of those issues. Cheers, Dave Could you elaborate? Ran Irusk2 double KAs oh about 4 months ago and it was a blood bath as their lowish command means they get a bit bunched up and sprays ignore stealth. Have you played it? Might be worth revisiting in the new RQ system.
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