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Post by auraco on Aug 5, 2019 14:43:39 GMT
I just don't see how Butcher3's kit would work against a gunline, he plays points down on the opponent (because of his lean 22 jack pts) and he has absolutely no defensive tech to help his army get there, it can work against melee build because the other guy has to come to you and you can apply Butcher3 where needed without exposing him, the thing is, that approach just doesn't work against guns, if you want to get to them Butcher needs to be way to forward and tank with his face, something that should not happen.
I've played Butcher3 a lot and guns has always been a weakness of his, could someone explain to me the reasonning behind trying to drop him into guns? I'm trying to understand and my stupid brain just sticks in it's pattern of screaming at me not to drop him into gunlines.
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Post by jonnyboy on Aug 5, 2019 15:17:10 GMT
New Jaws is pretty nice. Butcher 3 may not find a home here, but Karchev oh boy. Free kayazy, Pathfinder + road to war, widowmakers, and sorscha0. With kayazy elims and WM boat there are plenty of chances for road to war targets. I've been using behemoth + adjunct with a destroyer on sorscha0 to great effect. Three boosted pow 14s will put damage into a lot of things. Also pathfinder on road to war is a fantastic bit of icing on the cake. Here's my list.
War Room Army
Khador - 02 - Karchev
Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 75 / 75 Army
Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4 - Behemoth - PC: 25 (Battlegroup Points Used: 25) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5) - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11
Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 4 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 4
Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 0 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 0
THEME: Jaws of the Wolf ---
GENERATED : 08/05/2019 10:49:26 BUILD ID : 2089.19-07-18
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Post by tesoe on Aug 5, 2019 16:07:18 GMT
I'm liking it as a home for Old Witch 2, and Butcher 2.
Zevanna Agha, The Fate Keeper - WJ: +27 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4 - Behemoth - PC: 25 (Battlegroup Points Used: 25) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2)
Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Manhunter - PC: 4 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 - Grolar - PC: 18
Kayazy Assassins - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Kayazy Assassin Underboss - PC: 4 Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8 Kossite Woodsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 0 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 0 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 5 Grunts: 5
Kommander Orsus Zoktavir - WJ: +28 - War Dog - PC: 3 - Ruin - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17) - Grolar - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11
Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 4 Yuri the Axe - PC: 0 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 4 - Beast 09 - PC: 18
Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8 Kayazy Assassins - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15 - Kayazy Assassin Underboss - PC: 4 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 0 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 0
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Post by hocestbellum on Aug 5, 2019 16:58:27 GMT
It always warms my heart to see a B2 list! My plan is to have a greater number of cheaper jacks, but you do you!
I'd have expected Behemoth Forge Seer in the Old Witch list, too.
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Post by tesoe on Aug 5, 2019 18:04:30 GMT
It always warms my heart to see a B2 list! My plan is to have a greater number of cheaper jacks, but you do you! I'd have expected Behemoth Forge Seer in the Old Witch list, too. Arcane Machinery only works on Jacks in her battlegroup, or he probably would be.
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Post by borderprince on Aug 5, 2019 18:33:49 GMT
It always warms my heart to see a B2 list! My plan is to have a greater number of cheaper jacks, but you do you! I'd have expected Behemoth Forge Seer in the Old Witch list, too. Arcane Machinery only works on Jacks in her battlegroup, or he probably would be. I don't think the equation is that simple though.
Behemoth of course runs well in the BG. But +2 POW to shooting or melee from marshalling is also rather nice, especially combined with Empower. Unfortunately, you really then need 2 Forgeseers to get Behemoth up to optimal shooting output.
The Grolar in my experience is a real Focus hog to fulfil its potential - but on full Focus and a Boundless Charge from OW (not limited to battlegroup) it can be incredible. Divinator also helps the gun a lot. So I would have expected that one in the BG, perhaps over Behemoth (although maybe the real question is whether you need to marshall at all).
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Post by sand20go on Aug 5, 2019 19:02:15 GMT
Yeah - I think we still have yet to really figure out the right list/drop (and we may not HAVE one - PERHAPS something focused on AC with Strakov 2 but not sure about that) into the _current_ GL meta. What are those, you ask? Sprays and more sprays and more sprays after that. Ignoring stealth, cover (and without any worry about pesky hills), and particularly OW2's Windstorm, the Khador kit just isn't well situated. Our base 10 Def means that even though sprays are usually slighly more inaccurate no one cares into Khador. Our lack of general anti-shooting buffs (such as decel or Def boosters like Surefoot adds to the challenge.
I think an argument could be made (and I hate to do that but I might) that one of the big reasons for Khador's struggles in high level Con play comes down to that - it just can't dodge the inevitable match up where an opponent shoots slow khador off the board. Lots of other matchups can be won/advantage big red and then you run into Cruciable Guard, Clocks, Blockaders and Teps and then they just leverage those against Khador's also natural tendency (with largely focus 6 and a few focus 7) casters who like to brick up. And since to "win" these cons you gotta go undeafeted it keeps Khador from the final table. Again, another "quasi" major con (Gencon) and no khador on the final 2 tables.
(PS. I think there are anti-gun line lists are worth figuring out (you would want to pair them with a more "all comers" list - probably with OW2 or Vlad2 so you retain SOME anti-shooting elements in case you get list chickened).....:
A) Strakov 2 in Wolves. Use quicken on Nyss to get them upto SP 9+ Zepher for long range CRAs and infantry clearly. Swap last stand where appropriate over to them. Use Fenris for rise. Doomies as needed. Add in shooting jacks (Destroyers?) as you can fit in. Probably also Void Archons once rules are in to be both able to add in the debuff as well as more shooting.
B) Malakov2 in Wolves. A list I want to try to see if I can luck out with tough rolls and then the advances to put you into their back arcs for the counter. Positioning critical - you have to try to keep sprays to no more than 2 models a template. Practice, practice and more practice.
C) Zerkova1+Hurricane in flames. This feels really solid. It is a fantastic Watcher model to keep her safe - allowing her to really push forward and get her feat deep. Vengenance on models that can be pow 12 weaponmasters (percursor) is very very solid - allowing her to play something of the Sentinals/Gore4 game on the approach - but with a great denial feat. Thorn can hand out tough on the approach and S&P once you go into murderate things - turning the precursors up to 11. Add in battle priests to provide rise. Shield guard feel like a bonus at 2 points or an RQ for 2.
D) Vlad3 in Warriors.
While not helping with sprays the Initiates are simply amazing behind a group of uhlans and Murder ponies to help with direct shots. Armor 19 _IF_ you don't have to take the debuff from the DBR will help you weather out some of the sprays from the Railles. YOu threaten back 14, meaning he will take it on the cchin. Your Double HOF Judicator is probably going to encourage folks to close. Big issue is whether you can get the cav there. Bonus points that with linebreaker as a themebenefit you can get your drakhuns into a decent place to crit knockdown.
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Post by hocestbellum on Aug 5, 2019 19:19:43 GMT
I'm not sure the Zap Brannigan approach of throwing wave after wave of men at the problem is really the way to go! Wolves would seem like quite literally our worst theme for facing a decent gunline. Or are you trying to leverage the scenario game?
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Post by sand20go on Aug 5, 2019 19:32:10 GMT
I'm not sure the Zap Brannigan approach of throwing wave after wave of men at the problem is really the way to go! Wolves would seem like quite literally our worst theme for facing a decent gunline. Or are you trying to leverage the scenario game? This and the fact that Wolves: is now the only theme where you can bring Valachev and Nyss are not bad when they don't hurt your points. Last stand on weaponmasters is a "thing" - and you DO have tech in an Stravov 2 list to help keep them alive. Andy2 helps keep them alive through his feat shinengans - which provides a way of moving in such a way as to limit the number of shots you take _IF_ you tough. The reason for this thinking is that most gun lines that are worthy of the name don't shoot into our stuff against the "front of the card". They layer on debuffs. So that ARM 20 jack is getting hit by Rust. It is getting shot under Syvestro's feat so S&P benefits. VERY capable of putting serious hurt into at least 1 Khador jack a turn. More depending on what else you have brought. Then you start to realize that we have really ONLY one caster (Hark) who can help increase the arm up in into the >20 range (on feat). So you really are not playing with Khador jacks - you are playing with squishy much slower melee forcused Cygnar jacks. Not really good ;-) (Note you can TRY AC but that is a speed problem). As long as they have contestors (Halbies, Trancers, Crabbits, Swarm) they just play the "I will hit you and then move away" game - forcing your to first deal with all the tarpits BEFORE you can work on pinning down the gunplatforms.
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Post by hocestbellum on Aug 5, 2019 20:02:41 GMT
So your strategy for getting around debuffs is to take things so fragile a debuff would be meaningless? It's a bold strategy, I'll give you that! In much the same way as auraco can't parse B3 as a gunline drop, I still can't see Wolves as one either.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 5, 2019 20:12:48 GMT
So your strategy for getting around debuffs is to take things so fragile a debuff would be meaningless? It's a bold strategy, I'll give you that! In much the same way as auraco can't parse B3 as a gunline drop, I still can't see Wolves as one either. Yeah - that is the point. If they are going to hit you and kill you under S&P make the feat superfulous. His ego is healthy as is but note that this is the underlying logic that Loud Chris/Chickenslayer understood with Stalingrad - WG are going to die - push simply raw numbers at them and overwhelm their ability. The reason I don't like Stalingrad THAT much (but I still think isn't "bad" ) is that it doesn't provide much in the way of support on the approach compared to Andy2 [Wolves] (You get tough as well _AND_ you can move if you do to avoid taking a second shot) or Zerkova [Flames] - feat shuts things down AND the hurricane is simply flat out better than a jugger at protecting her so she can get pretty damm deep and get you into a great place on scenario. But that said, a winterguard grunt in the "full" package is costing you 20/15=1.33 a model (including the rockets and the UA). A doomie probably should be thought of as costing either 13/7 (1.87) or 10/6 (1.66). What you are getting with stalingrad is effeciency - DIRT cheap grunts that under bears strength and Battllust hit very very hard. I just wish Z1 could bring a dog in Wolves. I think the biggest issue for her is avoiding things that can walk up to her and thus force her to stay further back than she wants.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Aug 5, 2019 20:23:41 GMT
Has Butcher3 actually ever worked in the CG match up? His kit is terrible against gunlines and CG tend to always be on the gunline is side. I'm personnaly not a big fan of Butcher3 in jaws, and jaws in general, but with the change to the theme I can see the appeal more than before, that Butcher3 list seems interesting, but I fail to see how it's suppose to work as a gunline drop. I never could. I think it possible but into juris never got it done. Personally I never felt my B3 list was holding me back against Juris, I always felt it was my piss poor execution though =P At Kingdom Con I literally faced CG back to back, first round vs Juris, who defeated me without much trouble. He then made some observations that I took to my second game, where I performed much better, though sadly I couldn't kill the last Alchemist that finally enabled him to Freeze my marshaled Behemoth =( But anyway, I don't think I'm at a level where I can say "yup, if it wasn't for my army composition I would have definitely gotten that game".
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Post by sand20go on Aug 5, 2019 20:58:25 GMT
I never could. I think it possible but into juris never got it done. Personally I never felt my B3 list was holding me back against Juris, I always felt it was my piss poor execution though =P At Kingdom Con I literally faced CG back to back, first round vs Juris, who defeated me without much trouble. He then made some observations that I took to my second game, where I performed much better, though sadly I couldn't kill the last Alchemist that finally enabled him to Freeze my marshaled Behemoth =( But anyway, I don't think I'm at a level where I can say "yup, if it wasn't for my army composition I would have definitely gotten that game". THe problem with B3 into a high level player like Juris is that you have to play on an EXTREME razors edge and I THINK you have to accept that your jacks are going to be slow (aka you really do need to camp all 6 all the time on the approach). I think if I were going to spend the time TRYING to do it again I would do the following..... 1) See above. No energize. Camp 6. 2) Would be nice to have BOTH Ruin and Beast 09. Ruin because I want something that can go off a bit on a mission to get rid of transmutation. Otherwise the halbies will rule the day and/or you will have rocket men issues. Beast because I want a shield guard so I can TRY to minimize DBRs to face. It is bad news for Butcher if he takes one. 3) High level argus positioning. Probably the hardest part. You NEED to be able to find ways to be irritating with them to trigger vengeance at the precise right time. 4) Trancer strategy. You don't want to get slammed because a knocked down butcher is a sad butcher. this again means very high level positioning - you need Beast to be there to shield guard the ONE DBR but not TOO close so that you risk getting hit. You then need to understand your order of activation. Again, because Juris is GOOD you could expect the trancer to simply knock down beast, feat, the DBR to shoot Butcher because his shield guard is down and then everything to spray him to bits. You are hoping DEF 14 helps to save you a bit (though you probably also got transmuted down to Def 12). And that is why I think Butcher3 isn't good here (or at least people better be aware of it). Decent players may not see that play (trancer gets ride of shield guard; Transmutation to drop def, DBR to debuff. Spray for days). But I can assure you Juris will. And thus the question - what is your meta and what is the skill level of your players.
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Post by Havock on Aug 5, 2019 21:13:52 GMT
(...) though sadly I couldn't kill the last Alchemist that finally enabled him to Freeze my marshaled Behemoth =( Soon this won't be an issue anymore :v
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Post by P'tit Nico on Aug 6, 2019 9:31:53 GMT
Decent players may not see that play (trancer gets ride of shield guard; Transmutation to drop def, DBR to debuff. Spray for days). But I can assure you Juris will. And thus the question - what is your meta and what is the skill level of your players. I don't mean to be rude, but "knock the shield guard down then apply debuffs" isn't really a high-level play. That's pretty standard.
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