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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 31, 2019 10:35:54 GMT
The more I think about making lists in Jaws the more I'm convinced that we, as a Faction, have made out like bandits.
There doesn't seem to have been a huge amount of chat about it on here, (possibly because it was the first one spoiled and we needed to see how the rest panned out) but everything about Jaws got better, and I think it's right up there in terms of themes. Not 'top-of-the-game' level, but then most of those themes are there due to overtuned models rather than the theme itself.
Thanks to Requisition it has a really nice selection of models; decent melee from the Kayazys, decent shooting from the Widowmakers and Behemoth, all the jack support you could ask for. The Marksman is a great flag camper, Eliminators are great zone scorers, and even Kossites can play a decent role in scenario.
Unless you're only taking a colossal you'll always get some use out of the first theme benefit, and it also applies to Warjacks on juniors or marshals. We've only got two casters who can mass-pathfinder without a feat (Kozlov and Hark), and yet suddenly we have more pathfinder than Circle.
Terrain is a big part of steamroller these days and we get some control over it; also very handy.
You can run it as an infantry list, run it as a jack list, and run it everywhere in between. Apart from casters with mass pathfinder anyway (Hark, Kozlov) or casters with hyper-specialised requirements (S3, Z2) I'm struggling to think of warcasters that don't like Jaws. It was by far and away my least favourite Khador theme, but it's really fighting its way up the rankings now.
And as a knock-on to that; we are absolutely awash with good themes now. Armoured Corps (Korps?) is as good as ever, Wolves didn't change in any significant way, WGK lost a good benefit but kept a better one, and gained characters along the way. Flame in the Darkness looks good for Zerk1. WotoF looks really interesting, and Legion of Steel got better (although I'd still say it's bottom of the pile, I don't think it's as terrible as everyone seems to think)
Exciting times!
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Post by borderprince on Jul 31, 2019 12:23:47 GMT
I'm fairly sure it's illegal to use the internet to be so generally positive about changes.
Jaws is definitely much better than it was. I think the new benefits are really rather handy, and whether I run a caster in Jaws or WGK really depends on whether I want the Gun Carriage or not. Shooting is still below WGK or AC, but that's what you'd expect. The warrior-heavy side is a bit skewey though - Kayazy Assassins are decent, but die like flies on the approach if your opponent can handle stealth and are fairly expensive. So I think still much more a jack theme. But as Khador jacks are good this edition, that's no great hardship.
I'm slightly annoyed the Kodiak loses one of its selling points in theme. I'm much more on the fence about whether I'll still run Kodiaks in Jaws. Vent Steam + Grab and Smash are great, but the choice between Marauders and Kodiaks just got more difficult.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 31, 2019 13:43:21 GMT
It's fine; I counterbalance it by grumbling loudly about the cricket, rugby, and weather.
I'm not convinced Kayazy are particularly fragile or expensive, tbh. Given that everything seems to be P12 and up these days, the difference between ARM 12 and ARM 14 is pretty meaningless. If things can mitigate Stealth, then Kayazy aren't really any worse off than Doom Reavers or Iron Fangs at more or less the same cost. If things can't mitigate stealth then happy days, you're in a better position. You're harder to hit in melee, too. Sprays and blasts are obviously more of a problem, but we've got, what, 6 casters that can deal with blasts?
And there's always Irusk: he's been running Kayazy Jaws since before Requisition times, so it's only gotten better for that list.
But the area I'm really interested in is the 'everywhere in between' lists. Someone like Karchev will always run massed jacks better than most, and Irusk will run massed infantry better than most, but the Requisition changes really open up the more 'combined arms' lists. There's a lot of casters who like jacks for heavy lifting but can't run full spam.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Jul 31, 2019 14:32:28 GMT
Whoo positivety I think Butcher 1 now also likes this Theme, add in Sorcha 0 (who would fluffwise REALLY hate this particular job) or don't because you have pathfinder for the Jacks. The Kayazy hit super hard for one turn, have iron flesh on them, the Eliminators are great and even the Kossites would be really good ambushers on Feat turn! Also it really feels good to be able to bring widowmakers without suffering (this is also true for WGK!). When Themes dropped, people were really flipped about not having something to screen your Jacks. For Jaws you could almost manage, but now you are comfortable about taking Support!
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 31, 2019 14:55:37 GMT
I think all the Butchers like it. I could see Sorscha being good with them as she increases the threat of Orsus as well, but I'm being a contrary sod and refusing to play her. It's not all sunshine and rainbows, though; Jaws being good means I have to look at those goofy Kayazy models...
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Post by lorddragonmaster on Jul 31, 2019 15:00:11 GMT
Feel like it didn't really change my list building, but mitigated forest slowing me down. I'm still going in with Karchev, Sorcha0, Malakov, Forgeseers, and loading up on roughly 7 jacks (8 if I give up Behemoth). Difference is I save a couple points on Kayazy being free? I dunno, I was getting 3-4 free solos before (12-16 points total) and now I am getting 2 kayazy and 1 solo free so (15 points), a net improvement. conflictchamber.com/?c3201b_-1m7a7pkTkTkThF7whFe3kTlOkZchchKhador [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf [Karchev 1] Karchev the Terrible [+30] - Destroyer [14] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] - Behemoth [25] Greylord Forge Seer [4] Kovnik Andrei Malakov [4] - Marauder [11] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [4] - Rager [10] Kayazy Eliminators [0(5)] Kayazy Eliminators [0(5)]
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jul 31, 2019 19:59:13 GMT
I love the new Jaws, especially with casters that can provide Out of Activation movement shenanigans =D
You can literally step into a Forest, shoot something and Road to War/Energizer back. Or be outside a forest, get RtW/Energizer into it and charge out!
How Firetrucking great is that?
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Post by haraldtorvatn on Aug 2, 2019 14:57:55 GMT
Is this new Jaws in War room? Not really important since I have no one to play with, but I like to be updated.
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Post by hocestbellum on Aug 2, 2019 15:01:06 GMT
Yes, if you update warroom there's an option in the main menu labelled 'use oblivion themes' If not, you can find the details HERE
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Post by haraldtorvatn on Aug 2, 2019 16:03:43 GMT
Thanks!
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Post by steeltitan on Aug 3, 2019 10:10:40 GMT
I made some small mods to my list and will be running this:
Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 75 / 75 Army
Kommander Zoktavir, the Butcher Unleashed - WJ: +22 - War Argus - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 0 - Ruin - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17) - Devastator - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5) - Devastator - PC: 14 - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11
Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 0 - Rager - PC: 10 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Alexia, Mistress of the Witchfire - PC: 7 - Thrall Warrior Yuri the Axe - PC: 5
Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8
Pathfinder on all jacks is going to be great with Energizer.
The free forest is going to come in handy for basically all solos and the scouts, plus it gives you a central terrain piece for B3 to hide behind until he's ready to go nuts, even though it might be a bit far back. Having a safe space for Alexia2 to soul collect from and thrall-missile and repo back also seems good.
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Post by hocestbellum on Aug 5, 2019 12:06:38 GMT
I'm still not convinced by the S0-Rager or S0-Berzerker combos. I get that S0 is very useful for folks like Karchev and B3, but it always comes across as 'this was the cheapest jack I could put on her'. If it's not a jack you'd actually use normally then why bother? At that point it's pretty much an 8-10 point tax. And you could argue that those casters need protection from shooting, but how often does one shield guard make the difference? I feel that you need to be using a jack that you would want to take anyway, but that wouldn't necessarily care if it was in the Battlegroup. Prime candidates would be Destroyers and Devastators. steeltitan : Alexia2 in a list with less than 10 living models seems like an odd choice, and no Eliminators with B3 is certainly an opportunity missed. If you drop the Rager and move a Devastator on to S0 you get two free units of Eliminators, and making Yuri free gives you three points for mechanics or upgrades or whatever. Still not convinced by Alexia2, though; Orin might be better in the circumstances.
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Post by steeltitan on Aug 5, 2019 12:26:09 GMT
I'm still not convinced by the S0-Rager or S0-Berzerker combos. I get that S0 is very useful for folks like Karchev and B3, but it always comes across as 'this was the cheapest jack I could put on her'. If it's not a jack you'd actually use normally then why bother? At that point it's pretty much an 8-10 point tax. And you could argue that those casters need protection from shooting, but how often does one shield guard make the difference? I feel that you need to be using a jack that you would want to take anyway, but that wouldn't necessarily care if it was in the Battlegroup. Prime candidates would be Destroyers and Devastators. steeltitan : Alexia2 in a list with less than 10 living models seems like an odd choice, and no Eliminators with B3 is certainly an opportunity missed. If you drop the Rager and move a Devastator on to S0 you get two free units of Eliminators, and making Yuri free gives you three points for mechanics or upgrades or whatever. Still not convinced by Alexia2, though; Orin might be better in the circumstances. Butcher is pretty hard to put down and being able to shield guard that big shot or one of those few big shots (or a shot that knocks down or slams, mitigating B3s good DEF) that matter can either save him or deter the opponent from even trying. At the same time, it also protects S0 from being removed. She cant play too far back if you push up your jacks a lot and, in my specific case playing versus CG a lot (lots of shooting) having a 10p model protect both your caster and your BC bot seems solid. Fair to add: Can better players who position better do without a Rager? Probably. On Alexia2, her main purpose to me is not anti-magic but providing flexible and cheap solos for scoring and especially contesting. Again, going up against CG 60% of the time, Widowmakers dont live long because of Trancers, sprays, AOEs, etc. So thats 4 Thralls right there (early turns). In later turns, the enemy will be close enough to pull souls from. Eliminators have never performed versus CG either. Theres a variety of ways CG can quite trivially remove them. Sorry for all the 'yes, but CG' but that happens to be the majority of my matchups.
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Post by auraco on Aug 5, 2019 12:33:09 GMT
Has Butcher3 actually ever worked in the CG match up? His kit is terrible against gunlines and CG tend to always be on the gunline is side.
I'm personnaly not a big fan of Butcher3 in jaws, and jaws in general, but with the change to the theme I can see the appeal more than before, that Butcher3 list seems interesting, but I fail to see how it's suppose to work as a gunline drop.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 5, 2019 13:37:23 GMT
Has Butcher3 actually ever worked in the CG match up? His kit is terrible against gunlines and CG tend to always be on the gunline is side. I'm personnaly not a big fan of Butcher3 in jaws, and jaws in general, but with the change to the theme I can see the appeal more than before, that Butcher3 list seems interesting, but I fail to see how it's suppose to work as a gunline drop. I never could. I think it possible but into juris never got it done.
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