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Post by Aegis on Jul 21, 2019 22:16:44 GMT
Also, I think even some other jack casters, like Darius and Nemos, could like to play in SoT (even if, in this case, SD is also a good option), both for the GMCAs and for Caine0, that could be very interesting for dropping FFE on Thunderhead. You can only have Caine drop FFE on thunderhead in Heavy Metal though, as the latter is not allowed in Sons. You are right... I always forget that he is not bonded to Nemo.. |
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Jul 21, 2019 22:29:30 GMT
You can only have Caine drop FFE on thunderhead in Heavy Metal though, as the latter is not allowed in Sons. You are right... I always forget that he is not bonded to Nemo.. I mean it would make sense given that he created him as far as I know, but that's Dynamos honour. |
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cain
Junior Strategist
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Post by cain on Jul 22, 2019 16:18:06 GMT
After seeing the latest merc theme im not positive.
The gun mages need either a point drop or a small buff. Seeing cygnars mediocre new gun mage theme, we could hope for that. But after seeing the big theme buff for gun mages in mercs, that now seems less likely. PP now has to considerer the big difference in the gun mages themes. What could be OK in cygnar SoT may not be so in the merc theme.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 22, 2019 21:01:03 GMT
And I think that the best place to utilize the gun mages is non-theme force list, and they are bad on the theme dedicated to them actually. They are not the generalist, only the specialists. And they are not the line units, only the support corps. They need something to back up and handles what their peers can't in order to be function, and their theme totally lacks such other options.
Hell, SotT like an army of snipers - nothing but a bunch of sniper&spotter teams. Yeah, snipers are very elite soldiers. But they can't hold the ground, nor they can face the enemy directly. But if all you can have is the corps of snipers, you end up with just using them as cheap line troopers, despite of their valuable camouflage skills, recon capability and good aim and waste all the advantages. They need the infantries, artilleries and anything else to support. They can't wage war alone.
Sure, personally I value vanilla better than all the themes still, so it is hard to say that it is without bias. But, still it is true that SotT is quite underwhelming than the others -especially on its size and tools. The other themes are have some branches enough to choose. Storm Division has Storm Knights and Stormsmiths. Gravedigger has some critical flaws but at least Trencher has many varietions. Heavy Metal is our dedicated jack heavy lisy theme so if you just want to spamming jacks you better pick it. Then... Arcane Tempest? The branch that only have two types of units and two types of non-character solos? That's no more than a joke if you need to make a theme force and only using them(other than jacks). It gets worse when all of them are only the specialists, not the generalists.
In short, Arcane Tempest branch is too small to be utilized as an independent force right now. They are either need to be the part of the other force, or at least supported by the other kind of allies. For now they are just lackluster, and I don't think that giving an overpowered benefit or two will save them.
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Jul 22, 2019 21:39:18 GMT
Non-themes ? I havent seen anyone playing outside teams for years.
But i do agree on the gun mage role. Used them a lot in mrk.2 with lots of merc infantry. They have been shelfed since then.
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Post by mydnight on Jul 22, 2019 21:58:20 GMT
Falk is basically the main reason you play this theme. Remember precursors and other morrowans like his buff to.
I wonder if Caine2 will see new life. Bullet dodger and fire for effect work well with Falk. And he would like a unit of heightened reflexed precursors.
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skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206
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Post by skurkious on Jul 25, 2019 15:29:25 GMT
Did they change Precursors to sacred ward instead of spell ward??
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Jul 25, 2019 17:12:21 GMT
Did they change Precursors to sacred ward instead of spell ward?? Yes |
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luckgod84
Junior Strategist
Cygnar blogger
Posts: 163
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Post by luckgod84 on Jul 25, 2019 18:01:27 GMT
They also got 1" reach and dropped a point
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 25, 2019 19:32:15 GMT
So they are no longer an unusable piece. They are just an inefficient but quite playable option right now.
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Post by borderprince on Jul 26, 2019 5:56:21 GMT
And I think that the best place to utilize the gun mages is non-theme force list, and they are bad on the theme dedicated to them actually. They are not the generalist, only the specialists. And they are not the line units, only the support corps. They need something to back up and handles what their peers can't in order to be function, and their theme totally lacks such other options. Hell, SotT like an army of snipers - nothing but a bunch of sniper&spotter teams. Yeah, snipers are very elite soldiers. But they can't hold the ground, nor they can face the enemy directly. But if all you can have is the corps of snipers, you end up with just using them as cheap line troopers, despite of their valuable camouflage skills, recon capability and good aim and waste all the advantages. They need the infantries, artilleries and anything else to support. They can't wage war alone. Sure, personally I value vanilla better than all the themes still, so it is hard to say that it is without bias. But, still it is true that SotT is quite underwhelming than the others -especially on its size and tools. The other themes are have some branches enough to choose. Storm Division has Storm Knights and Stormsmiths. Gravedigger has some critical flaws but at least Trencher has many varietions. Heavy Metal is our dedicated jack heavy lisy theme so if you just want to spamming jacks you better pick it. Then... Arcane Tempest? The branch that only have two types of units and two types of non-character solos? That's no more than a joke if you need to make a theme force and only using them(other than jacks). It gets worse when all of them are only the specialists, not the generalists. In short, Arcane Tempest branch is too small to be utilized as an independent force right now. They are either need to be the part of the other force, or at least supported by the other kind of allies. For now they are just lackluster, and I don't think that giving an overpowered benefit or two will save them. I don't agree with this for a couple of reasons:
(1) Heavy Metal is no longer a dedicated jack heavy list. It gives no benefit to jacks beyond a small bonus to repair, and under the new requisition system you don't need to take lots of jacks to get the free models. Any theme can now be played jack heavy, depending on the other benefits/models you want to include with it. That makes SoT a possible jack-heavy list. Some accurate, magical, ranged shooting is a nice counterpart to mostly melee jacks and you still have access to journeymen and Arlan.
(2) The point about SoT being a group of specialists without generalists or line infantry. It's not wrong, but so what? The SoT theme doesn't require you to field lots of gun mages, it just gives you the option to take some, or lots, if you really want (in fact, that seems to have been part of the theme's design since the beginning, given its unusual benefit in the old days of a free model for every 15 points of gun mages).
I think you are trying to see them forces as self-contained armies, but
that isn't what all the theme forces are. Some are like that, but others
are meant to represent more niche groupings of models. Doesn't mean
they produce a bad list, just not something one would envisage as a full scale army. But WM isn't about full scale armies - it's about a battlegroup led by an exceptionally rare individual + supporting acts. From that perspective, you can make some decent lists from the theme, and they aren't implausible forces from a background perspective. Take a few Gun Mage solos and the Black 13th, then just run warjacks. Voila, a black ops groups who have called in a warcaster (a very valuable military resource) after locating their target. Take Kraye, jacks + Blazers and you've got a rapid response force or a border patrol.
That said, if you what you want when building a list is a list that features a variety of different unit types, then no, SoT isn't for you. But that doesn't mean it can't produce lists that are at least OK.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 26, 2019 7:15:13 GMT
And I think that the best place to utilize the gun mages is non-theme force list, and they are bad on the theme dedicated to them actually. They are not the generalist, only the specialists. And they are not the line units, only the support corps. They need something to back up and handles what their peers can't in order to be function, and their theme totally lacks such other options. Hell, SotT like an army of snipers - nothing but a bunch of sniper&spotter teams. Yeah, snipers are very elite soldiers. But they can't hold the ground, nor they can face the enemy directly. But if all you can have is the corps of snipers, you end up with just using them as cheap line troopers, despite of their valuable camouflage skills, recon capability and good aim and waste all the advantages. They need the infantries, artilleries and anything else to support. They can't wage war alone. Sure, personally I value vanilla better than all the themes still, so it is hard to say that it is without bias. But, still it is true that SotT is quite underwhelming than the others -especially on its size and tools. The other themes are have some branches enough to choose. Storm Division has Storm Knights and Stormsmiths. Gravedigger has some critical flaws but at least Trencher has many varietions. Heavy Metal is our dedicated jack heavy lisy theme so if you just want to spamming jacks you better pick it. Then... Arcane Tempest? The branch that only have two types of units and two types of non-character solos? That's no more than a joke if you need to make a theme force and only using them(other than jacks). It gets worse when all of them are only the specialists, not the generalists. In short, Arcane Tempest branch is too small to be utilized as an independent force right now. They are either need to be the part of the other force, or at least supported by the other kind of allies. For now they are just lackluster, and I don't think that giving an overpowered benefit or two will save them. I don't agree with this for a couple of reasons:
(1) Heavy Metal is no longer a dedicated jack heavy list. It gives no benefit to jacks beyond a small bonus to repair, and under the new requisition system you don't need to take lots of jacks to get the free models. Any theme can now be played jack heavy, depending on the other benefits/models you want to include with it. That makes SoT a possible jack-heavy list. Some accurate, magical, ranged shooting is a nice counterpart to mostly melee jacks and you still have access to journeymen and Arlan.
(2) The point about SoT being a group of specialists without generalists or line infantry. It's not wrong, but so what? The SoT theme doesn't require you to field lots of gun mages, it just gives you the option to take some, or lots, if you really want (in fact, that seems to have been part of the theme's design since the beginning, given its unusual benefit in the old days of a free model for every 15 points of gun mages).
I think you are trying to see them forces as self-contained armies, but
that isn't what all the theme forces are. Some are like that, but others
are meant to represent more niche groupings of models. Doesn't mean
they produce a bad list, just not something one would envisage as a full scale army. But WM isn't about full scale armies - it's about a battlegroup led by an exceptionally rare individual + supporting acts. From that perspective, you can make some decent lists from the theme, and they aren't implausible forces from a background perspective. Take a few Gun Mage solos and the Black 13th, then just run warjacks. Voila, a black ops groups who have called in a warcaster (a very valuable military resource) after locating their target. Take Kraye, jacks + Blazers and you've got a rapid response force or a border patrol.
That said, if you what you want when building a list is a list that features a variety of different unit types, then no, SoT isn't for you. But that doesn't mean it can't produce lists that are at least OK.
We can't expect the generalist force for the theme force easily, as the word 'theme force' implies. But, honestly, what's the 'benefit' of SotT? What does they do right now? You know, theme force is generally lacks something(actually, most things in the reality) than vanilla, thus it is nothing wrong that it lose the flexibility than the normal force. And that's why give the extra benefit for restict your own choice. But, that's not enough - you are need to at least play the game with what you got. Even if the benefit is good, it gains nothing when its benefit can't cover its weakness and also it can't do most thinga by themselves. Also, they lacks a choice. As I said, for now we have two normal Arcane Tempest units(Black 13th is more like a solo package so pass), and both of them are expensive and also low in number, means Cygnar's expensive points and fragility is only got worse. Although DEF 14 is quite survivable, consider their expensive points and low strength means they are not able to get the meaningful advantagr with that. Also all they can is kill some infantries by ranged attack, which is not a surprise on Cygnar. So, they lacks the choice but also lacks an advantage to pick them. As I said, if you really want to use the gun mages, go vanilla. At there you can also have other units to work with them. Else Llaelese Resistance is an another choice, although ATGM is an inferior pick on there as well. Tempest Blazers are not so bad on either list, though. |
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jul 26, 2019 8:44:23 GMT
Else Llaelese Resistance is an another choice, although ATGM is an inferior pick on there as well. Tempest Blazers are not so bad on either list, though. You do know that Blazers don't pick up Sniper in Llaelese Resistance, right? |
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Post by mydnight on Jul 26, 2019 10:26:57 GMT
Else Llaelese Resistance is an another choice, although ATGM is an inferior pick on there as well. Tempest Blazers are not so bad on either list, though. You do know that Blazers don't pick up Sniper in Llaelese Resistance, right? Blazers seem like a weak pick. They were good when the meta was middling-arm single wound weapon master spam but that seems to have passed. Also they are pretty easy to kill in MK3 if anything gets within range of them. |
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Post by hypnotoad on Jul 26, 2019 14:51:11 GMT
While I appreciate the work that goes into creating these theme lists, I don't quite understand the intent of this list or bonuses provided.
What was this theme supposed to do? Make gun mages better? Make me want to bring more gun mages?
People are talking about playing Faulk with Precursors in this list. Does that fit with the gun mage theme? Does bringing more 'jacks fit into the theme?
Hell, the fact that the caster used in the write up is not one of the four gun mage caster profiles seems a bit telling. Does anyone else think that's weird?
As an aside, pistoleer on ATGM is a trap. Effectively a poor man's POW 10 weapon master on non-reach weapons is awful. The fact that someone thought that the problem with the ATGM was that they couldn't melee boggles my mind.
Who brings ATGM for melee? Make them better shooting utility! Giving them Sniper in the Llaelese theme was a great idea. Why not here in the theme list with a famous order of gun mages in the name?
The bonus doesn't have to be sniper, just make it something worth using.
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