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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 16, 2019 23:02:04 GMT
sand20go I think you ABSOLUTELY need at least one unit of DRs to have the UA. You don’t want to rely on the feat to overcome terrain, and just as importantly you need to be able to deal with Tough. So lets say you dump 3 points into a UA. You have 2 points left. NOW WHAT?
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Post by sand20go on Aug 16, 2019 23:26:31 GMT
sand20go I think you ABSOLUTELY need at least one unit of DRs to have the UA. You don’t want to rely on the feat to overcome terrain, and just as importantly you need to be able to deal with Tough. So lets say you dump 3 points into a UA. You have 2 points left. NOW WHAT? Drop widget and go eliminators
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 16, 2019 23:58:16 GMT
Now there are my murder girls!
Sure you don’t want to just drop a couple of heavies and sneak in Victor? You KNOW you want to...
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Post by sand20go on Aug 17, 2019 0:28:40 GMT
Now there are my murder girls! Sure you don’t want to just drop a couple of heavies and sneak in Victor? You KNOW you want to... [br Nope. He wants more heavies and more things to overrun
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Aug 18, 2019 12:38:06 GMT
Question for you all Komrades, with regard to Torch, or even for that matter Beast 09, with Strakov/Sorscha respectively, I was thinking that I would actually get more mileage out of using the Grolar for the same points cost. I know both Torch and Beast bring little extras, but with his knockdown hammer and multiple gun shots, I think he can put out many more attacks than melee focused Beast and with the adjunct giving eyeless sight the flares in Torch are less necessary, Or am I missing out on how important flares are still? I guess with a real cloud wall caster they would be important, or is my understanding on how flares really work the problem? The flares don’t let you see through the clouds, right? They just let you see the models they touch? Anyway, I just think the Grolar gives more utility, especially helping other models set up to assassinate by knocking things down, or with sorscha’s FEAT freezing things, his shots get much better. Anyway, those are some of my thoughts.
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Post by michael on Aug 18, 2019 13:44:16 GMT
The Grolar is hands-down better than Torch all the time, in my opinion. Beast-09’s niche is just different enough that you can justify him. Torch needs some love, in my opinion.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Aug 18, 2019 13:54:43 GMT
I've said it before and I'll say it again: give Torch an alchemical mask and P+S 18 on the buzzsaw! Or just the mask! It gives him a niche! Sort of?
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Post by sand20go on Aug 18, 2019 15:25:08 GMT
Maybe. Won with 3 doomies, torch, ruin, uggie and a destroyer yesterday into maddox. Missed escorts si have t decide on that. Interesting are torches immunities....new infernal debuff countered by anti corrosion
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Post by sand20go on Aug 18, 2019 15:55:08 GMT
Maybe. Won with 3 doomies, torch, ruin, uggie and a destroyer yesterday into maddox. Missed escorts si have t decide on that. Interesting are torches immunities....new infernal debuff countered by anti corrosion
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Aug 19, 2019 4:49:47 GMT
The Grolar is hands-down better than Torch all the time, in my opinion. Beast-09’s niche is just different enough that you can justify him. Torch needs some love, in my opinion. Except against things immune to knockdown of course, at which point Torch is far better. I feel the Overrun and sprint shenanigans are generally overlooked with Torch and Strakhov1, especially when combined with Superiority. 12" of out of activation movement on a Khador heavy is excellent! Cheers, Dave
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Post by Soul Samurai on Aug 19, 2019 8:41:59 GMT
I feel the Overrun and sprint shenanigans are generally overlooked with Torch and Strakhov1, especially when combined with Superiority. 12" of out of activation movement on a Khador heavy is excellent! Yes, but it's Sprint on a p+S 17 expensive heavy on a caster with no damage buffs; to really get value out of it you need to devote some extra resources into, like at least a damage buff or softening something up with some quality shooting. At that point maybe just a regular Juggernaut with regular Overrun is better value? I dunno. I'm just not sure what you're actually going to kill with Torch. I guess if you're saving Torch for late game assassinations then it's nice to be able to still get value out of him in the meantime by killing small things and Sprinting to relative safety (even though it might have to just be a 4" sprint as it might not be worth putting that much extra focus into whatever he's killing)?
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Post by hocestbellum on Aug 19, 2019 9:17:45 GMT
Question for you all Komrades, with regard to Torch, or even for that matter Beast 09, with Strakov/Sorscha respectively, I was thinking that I would actually get more mileage out of using the Grolar for the same points cost. I know both Torch and Beast bring little extras, but with his knockdown hammer and multiple gun shots, I think he can put out many more attacks than melee focused Beast and with the adjunct giving eyeless sight the flares in Torch are less necessary, Or am I missing out on how important flares are still? I guess with a real cloud wall caster they would be important, or is my understanding on how flares really work the problem? The flares don’t let you see through the clouds, right? They just let you see the models they touch? Anyway, I just think the Grolar gives more utility, especially helping other models set up to assassinate by knocking things down, or with sorscha’s FEAT freezing things, his shots get much better. Anyway, those are some of my thoughts. The Grolar is a good jack, and you'll rarely hear me argue against it except on cost grounds. If you wanted to run a Grolar instead of Torch then I doubt you'll be disappointed. You are correct on the Flares, and if you were running jacks alone then yeah, the Adjunct does the job just as well. But Wolves packs quite a bit of support, and Doom Reavers. Putting Guidance on a jack lets that jack go do its thing through a cloud wall, which is probably 'kill a jack/beast'. Putting Guidance on Torch and having it Flare achieves the same thing at a higher cost (you need to activate the Adjunct and Torch rather than just the Adjunct), but it's also got a lot more flexibility. It's the only way in you can let the Doom Reavers get through clouds, and it allows all your Ternions and Kolduns to hit Stealth/clouded models with their debuffs. It also allows more than one jack to gain the benefit. It's better for dealing with units, as you can usually get more than one model under each flare. It's a fairly specific bit of anti-cloud tech, but it's pretty strong. With regards to the assassinations, what you have to bear in mind is that if you are auto-hitting a caster with a full loaded jack, they are almost certainly dead regardless of P17 or 18. Grolar is better against things that can be KD because of the extra shots, Torch is better against things that can't be KD. Grolar is better against jacks and beasts because of the higher power, Torch has a much deeper toolbox. I don't think there's a right or wrong choice; it depends what you think your list needs. All of this isn't to say that I wouldn't prefer Torch to be P+S 18 and have Dual Attack and Alchemical Mask or something like that. But he's a solid pick for a Strakhov Wolves list.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Aug 19, 2019 11:55:46 GMT
With regards to the assassinations, what you have to bear in mind is that if you are auto-hitting a caster with a full loaded jack, they are almost certainly dead regardless of P17 or 18. I agree that the difference between P+S 17 or 18 is minor in this case, but the fact that a Grolar can land 8-10 attacks (initial hammer, autohitting fist, almost-autohitting 3-5 gunshots, up to three more autohitting hammers) to Torch's 5-ish (initial buzzsaw, fist, up to three more autohitting buzzsaws, and you might land the assault spray if you roll crazy hot) goes a LONG way towards burning through focus and especially transfers. Torch basically can't kill a Warlock camping four Fury, and even just to kill one with three Fury you need two pretty good damage rolls (let's say ARM 16 so you're talking 4D6+1 which is 15 damage on average: so less than 50%). That's assuming all attacks hit and you're not spending focus on charging or boosting the initial attack roll (and it also assumes Torch lands both his initial melee attacks, which even at MAT 9 is less likely than the Grolar landing both his initial melee attacks).
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Post by hocestbellum on Aug 19, 2019 12:59:57 GMT
All of that is true; the Grolar is a good jack! Like I said; it comes down to what you feel your list needs. The Grolar is often the better assassin, but it has zero chance of getting my Doom Reavers or Greylords through that cloud wall.
Also, a lot of the time I'm facing Menoth or Circle wolds. They've all got anti-KD out of the wazoo, so the Grolar would be less reliable an assassin for me.
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Post by auraco on Aug 19, 2019 14:00:13 GMT
I find the native pathfinder on the Grolar to be a big thing going for him with Overrun, since we are talking about running the list in wolves Torch has his relentless charge but doesn't have pathfinder like he would in wolves. Being able to cross forest and rubble with ease is a big part of getting mileage out of overrun. Regardless of actual damage output on immune to knocked down or not target, having a possible 3 extra inches of threat range on the grolar makes me thing he's by far the superior jack over torch.
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