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Post by hocestbellum on Aug 8, 2019 11:19:15 GMT
Down isn't out, though; if you look at that list he can fully fuel two jacks without actually spending anything from Strakhov. He's not casting Sentry, and if Occultation is on a Battelgroup model then his only focus outlay is Overrun and some focus for the jacks. I'd almost not expect him to to be camping less than 2 ever, and 3-4 isn't unlikely.
Which is not to say that he's invincible, but I feel like he's not going to go down too easily.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 8, 2019 19:04:12 GMT
I love strakov1 and I really like him in the new Wolves remix. Jury still out about how to balance the right number of doomies and the jack mix....but having that kind of threat ranges and the overrun stuff ALONG WITH doomies feels....well....good.
Cormier could be useful here as well - providing opportunities to move stuff up that was thinking it was going to be hanging back ;-)
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Post by sand20go on Aug 8, 2019 19:05:03 GMT
Down isn't out, though; if you look at that list he can fully fuel two jacks without actually spending anything from Strakhov. He's not casting Sentry, and if Occultation is on a Battelgroup model then his only focus outlay is Overrun and some focus for the jacks. I'd almost not expect him to to be camping less than 2 ever, and 3-4 isn't unlikely. Which is not to say that he's invincible, but I feel like he's not going to go down too easily. Sentry is probably on Torch (or should be for random fun) but that is upkept for free.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Aug 9, 2019 9:05:55 GMT
Interesting list! Not totally sold on Ragman though...
Cheers, Dave
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 16, 2019 0:57:49 GMT
I watched a Srakhov Wolves vs. Dwarves game being played tonight (unfortunately I was the odd man out at game night). The Khador player was using Robert McCormick’s list from Avatar of Slaughter - Ruin, Juggernaut, 2X Marauder, Koldun/Forge Seer load, 2X ternion, 2X reavers & UA, rags. He got the alpha, but it was a grind. Watching it play out, and putting myself in the Khador player’s shoes, I observed (at least for that match):
1. I’d love a 3rd unit of Reavers to play both flanks and one up the middle.
2. I’d love a 5th warjack to maintain staying power if I feat for attrition and not the win.
3. The Ternion were too far away to be useful. Also, the Adjunct felt superfluous since Strakhov was upkeeping for free anyway, with occultation on himself.
4. Four free focus on the board seemed really good.
With that in mind, I came up with the following. I’d love your thoughts. It just feels really tight. Deploying first, and not knowing how your opponent will unload, you’ve got a Marauder and Reaver unit for the center and both flanks. You’ll never have a turn with a wasted model in play. You get quantity over quality, but still have Ruin and a Juggernaut. IDK... Thoughts?
War Room Army
Khador - Strakhov 1 WoW (copy)
Theme: Wolves of Winter 75 / 75 Army
Kommander Oleg Strakhov - WJ: +28 - Ruin - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11
Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Koldun Lord - PC: 0 Koldun Lord - PC: 4
Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10
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Post by sand20go on Aug 16, 2019 1:39:14 GMT
I watched a Srakhov Wolves vs. Dwarves game being played tonight (unfortunately I was the odd man out at game night). The Khador player was using Robert McCormick’s list from Avatar of Slaughter - Ruin, Juggernaut, 2X Marauder, Koldun/Forge Seer load, 2X ternion, 2X reavers & UA, rags. He got the alpha, but it was a grind. Watching it play out, and putting myself in the Khador player’s shoes, I observed (at least for that match): 1. I’d love a 3rd unit of Reavers to play both flanks and one up the middle. 2. I’d love a 5th warjack to maintain staying power if I feat for attrition and not the win. 3. The Ternion were too far away to be useful. Also, the Adjunct felt superfluous since Strakhov was upkeeping for free anyway, with occultation on himself. 4. Four free focus on the board seemed really good. With that in mind, I came up with the following. I’d love your thoughts. It just feels really tight. Deploying first, and not knowing how your opponent will unload, you’ve got a Marauder and Reaver unit for the center and both flanks. You’ll never have a turn with a wasted model in play. You get quantity over quality, but still have Ruin and a Juggernaut. IDK... Thoughts? War Room Army Khador - Strakhov 1 WoW (copy) Theme: Wolves of Winter 75 / 75 Army Kommander Oleg Strakhov - WJ: +28 - Ruin - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Koldun Lord - PC: 0 Koldun Lord - PC: 4 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 He really wants a shooting jack. It makes overtake uber.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 16, 2019 1:44:55 GMT
He really wants a shooting jack. It makes overtake uber. Of course you’re right. The options would seem to be swapping 2 Marauders for a Destroyer and Berserker (don’t hate that), a Destroyer and Fenris (really don’t hate that...Fenris in this list seems really good), or losing Ruin for...a Spriggan? That’s pretty decent since a superiority Spriggan with Dual Attack is definitely triggering Overtake. And bulldoze is sooo good.
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Post by hocestbellum on Aug 16, 2019 8:41:01 GMT
Whilst I wouldn't presume to speak for Rob McCormick, I have a few observations based on noodling around with a similar list.
1) I'm not 100% on Ragman, but that's only because I really like Spriggan + Kell/Orin a lot of the time. Torch + Ragman is absolutely valid. The extra ARM debuff is helpful later, and it can free up a Koldun to cast one of his other 400 spells.
2) Torch/Spriggan is quite important to the list. I've mostly been using the Spriggan but Rob convinced me of the utility of Torch via FB. They are both assassin jacks, one with slightly better delivery (due to reach and bulldoze) and one with better accuracy and general abilities (+MAT, Sustained Attack, flamethrower). But a very, very useful part of both their games are the Flares, which are the only anti-cloud tech that the Doom Reavers can use. (Also, Torch having Relentless Charge is good, and Sprint + Overrun has the potential to be incredible, although I've not triggered it yet.)
3) This ties in with the Adjunct. The Flares are a bit clunky to use to get through a cloud wall due to their wording, but if you put eyeless sight on Torch/Spriggan they can plonk the Flares wherever they like. It's something that won't always come up, but is incredible if it does.
4) Be reasonably pushy with the Ternion. They've got a threat range of 16-18", so they don't need to be right up there, but you can get them less than 6" behind the main lines without too much trouble. Keep them fairly spread to mitigate blasts and electro stuff.
5) You don't need a ranged jack for Overrun. Our ranged jacks are, by and large, RAT 4. That means that even when aiming you are less accurate than a melee jack, and the melee jack will probably get more than one chance to kill something due to increased initials. Ranged jacks have an advantage in threat range, but don't forget that even your most bog-standard jack has a threat of 12" on Strakhov's feat turn. That's almost as much as an aiming Destroyer.
6) Ternions are the bee's knees in this list. Well worth the price of admission. -2 DEF makes a massive difference to the effectiveness of... well, everything. Even a simple drop from 12-13 to 10-11 is equivalent to almost 20% extra average damage. I was only running one unit, but I would certainly go for a second unit before I went down to none. I'd like to see if Bonds of Woe moves from being a handy shot to useful recursion when you have 8 in a list.
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Post by borderprince on Aug 16, 2019 11:16:45 GMT
So based on that, if you think you can afford to lose the Escorts, you could have:
Strakhov1
-Ruin
-Torch
-Marauder
-Marauder
-Adjunct (free)
Doomreavers
Doomreavers
Doomreavers Ternion (free)
Ternion (free)
Koldun Lord
Koldun Lord
Forgeseer
Forgeseer
You've got no pathfinder for the Doomreavers other than the feat (+ apparition, I suppose), which strikes me as the obvious weakness. But the feat may well be enough.
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Post by hocestbellum on Aug 16, 2019 11:40:53 GMT
So this is the list I was running:
Khador [Theme] Wolves of Winter
[Strakhov 1] Kommander Oleg Strakhov [+28] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] - Ruin [17] - Spriggan [17] - Greylord Adjunct [0(4)] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Koldun Lord [4] Koldun Lord [4] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] - Greylord Escort [3] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] - Greylord Escort [3] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] - Greylord Escort [3] Greylord Ternion [0(7)]
So compared to Rob's list I've dropped a Ternion, Forge Seer and Ragman for that extra unit, with the other point coming from the Torch-Spriggan switch.
Getting three units, two ternion, and four jacks in there is quite the squeeze... In your list I would probably drop a Forge Seer for an Escort so you have some pathfinder
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 16, 2019 13:17:17 GMT
borderprince, I like the direction you're heading but I just can't see taking 3 units of doomreavers without any Escorts. I'm finding having two units with Escorts to be critical given both the combination of terrain and Tough opponents in my meta. I don't want to rely on the feat for Pathfinder... One of my more favorite tactics with Vlad 2 has been is having a turn where you're not yet fully committing (e.g. holding your feat), but are instead able to apparition a unit out from behind a forest in order to charge into action. I'm also not yet sold on two units of Ternion. It might be a thing and I'm just not yet facile enough to pull off the trick. hocestbellum, I like your list. Tell me, are you finding taking any Ternion actually worth it? I'm not saying they're good, I'm saying the points allocation to units and free models in Jack heavy list is tight, and you're losing the 4th free focus (which you will use) for a unit of a Ternion. If the Ternion are getting work done equal to having a 5th scoring solo plus the focus, then awesome. I'm generally not sold on Torch over the Spriggan. I read Rob's Facebook post on Torch. The sad fact is, Torch hasn't been great for all of MK3 and being able to run a jack heavy Strakhov wolves list doesn't suddenly make him great. At 18 points, the Grolar is great. Since you have Superiority on stick, a MAT 8 Spriggan with bulldoze is also great. TBH, I think if Torch got Dual Attack (which the Grolar has, just so we're comparing apples to apples) he'd be worthwhile. So then there's the "Spriggan or Ruin" question. Ruin is an amazing jack and having a MAT 10 beatstick is incredible. How about this? Strakhov Adjunct Spriggan OR Ruin [?] Grolar Juggernaut Marauder Koldun Lord X2 Forge Seer 2nd Forge Seer OR Ternion [?] 3X Doomreavers, 2 with UA That's 75 points.
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Post by hocestbellum on Aug 16, 2019 14:01:28 GMT
Armchair Warrior I've only got limited experience with Torch so far, so I wouldn't like to say which is better out of him and the Spriggan. But I wouldn't like to lose both just simply because cloud walls are incredibly annoying. Grolar is an excellent jack, no doubt, so if you don't feel you need the cloud mitigation then I'd go for it. Haven't tried it myself in Wolves, though, so let me know how it turns out if you try it. The only problems I've had with the Ternion are that I wished I had more of them. I'd absolutely take them over the second Forge Seer. Great toolbox of abilities; it's pretty rare to have a turn where you can't use any of their spells. If I had to pay 7 for them I'd sing a different tune, but given that they only have a 4-pt opportunity cost I think they're great. My future plans for the list depend on the final Void Archon rules, but I may well drop the third Doom Reaver unit for a Ternion and the Void Archon. Have to wait and see on that one.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 16, 2019 18:22:57 GMT
OK, what about a slightly different direction. None of these lists are really making optimal use out of Sentry. Victor is our best Sentry option in the Wolves theme. Face it, the primary reason you were bringing the Ternion was as a DEF fixer, but how good is a Magic ability 6 DEF fixer who is too far away to do work anyway? What about dropping for 4 jacks to 3 but add a real centerpiece with staying power and a Great Big Gun that both sets your opponent on fire and offers a sweet, sweet -2 DEF bonus?
Theme: Wolves of Winter 75 / 75 Army
Kommander Oleg Strakhov - WJ: +28 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4 - Victor - PC: 34 (Battlegroup Points Used: 28) - Ruin - PC: 17 - Marauder - PC: 11
Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 [Or a unit of Ternion, season to taste] Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Koldun Lord - PC: 4 Koldun Lord - PC: 0
Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10
Turn 1: Sentry on Victor. Superiority can go on Ruin for a juicy MAT 10, but you’ve got enough focus in the list that you might put it on the Marauder turn 1 just to have your less expensive jack further out as bait. Occultation on Strakhov. One unit of doomies left, right and center. Everybody runs. Position the unit of doomies with the Escort outside the edge of that forest sitting in the middle of the table.
Turn 2+: Either play cat and mouse for a round, or commit, depending on how far up your opponent got. Let’s see...you need 10 focus on the board to fully trick out 3 jacks while casting Overrun twice, or fully loading the Marauder and Ruin while casting Overrun 3 times so your turn ends with you scooting Strakhov back to safety. Thinking about it, I believe you will actually appreciate being able to choose from those options, and so the 2nd free Forge Seer may be important. And, if you only need/want 8, that frees you up to use the Koldun Lords to cast Puppet Master or Brittle Frost.
Hmmm...
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Post by sand20go on Aug 16, 2019 19:41:48 GMT
OK, what about a slightly different direction. None of these lists are really making optimal use out of Sentry. Victor is our best Sentry option in the Wolves theme. Face it, the primary reason you were bringing the Ternion was as a DEF fixer, but how good is a Magic ability 6 DEF fixer who is too far away to do work anyway? What about dropping for 4 jacks to 3 but add a real centerpiece with staying power and a Great Big Gun that both sets your opponent on fire and offers a sweet, sweet -2 DEF bonus? Theme: Wolves of Winter 75 / 75 Army Kommander Oleg Strakhov - WJ: +28 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4 - Victor - PC: 34 (Battlegroup Points Used: 28) - Ruin - PC: 17 - Marauder - PC: 11 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 [Or a unit of Ternion, season to taste] Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Koldun Lord - PC: 4 Koldun Lord - PC: 0 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Turn 1: Sentry on Victor. Superiority can go on Ruin for a juicy MAT 10, but you’ve got enough focus in the list that you might put it on the Marauder turn 1 just to have your less expensive jack further out as bait. Occultation on Strakhov. One unit of doomies left, right and center. Everybody runs. Position the unit of doomies with the Escort outside the edge of that forest sitting in the middle of the table. Turn 2+: Either play cat and mouse for a round, or commit, depending on how far up your opponent got. Let’s see...you need 10 focus on the board to fully trick out 3 jacks while casting Overrun twice, or fully loading the Marauder and Ruin while casting Overrun 3 times so your turn ends with you scooting Strakhov back to safety. Thinking about it, I believe you will actually appreciate being able to choose from those options, and so the 2nd free Forge Seer may be important. And, if you only need/want 8, that frees you up to use the Koldun Lords to cast Puppet Master or Brittle Frost. Hmmm... I have run Victor before with him. Love sentry shot but he really wants more mobility and more options. Why I like the other list. let me get home and I will doodle. Motivated to do so cause I probably will run that tomorrow.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 16, 2019 22:08:05 GMT
So here is my current dojo. 70 points....as I think the 5 point sideboard is sorta meta dependent (see below) and is as much playing with what you know and like as opposed to obvious choices that have to be made - especially given our current load out.
Strakov Adjunct - his value is not in upkeep but the 2 inch extension of overrun which provides a significant Quality of life improvement AND provides your jacks with a wider "front" and the ability to come at your enemies from more accute angles. You nearly ALWAYS want to cast overrun before moving. Jugger Ruin Spriggan Destroyer
This load out can be mixed and matched but the important thing is that I have 3 beat sticks, 2 shooting jacks and 2 jacks with reach. And you can swap out Torch for Spriggan....just that I will still like him for all the reasons we have noted. WIth the destroyer it also gives me a sentry target.
2 Koldun lords - duh 1 Forgeseer - just need 1 to allow both KL to empower. 3 doomreavers - no escorts. A nice to have but you get pathfinder on the feat and appration can help with other issues with terrain. Widget - 3 point mechanic with flight and repo and D3+2 healing is amazing here. Never get frustrated because a jack needs help. Can camp flags if need be.
Now you could swap out Widget for Alexia 2. My own swap is likely either KEs.
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