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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 6, 2019 21:53:22 GMT
Komrades, I need some advice. GenCon is coming up in a month, and life has gotten in the way of my having the games under my belt to be comfortable with a list pair. I would really appreciate your input. List 1: Wolves of WinterThankfully, I think I'm almost set on my first list, excepting that I'm not sure on which jacks to take. I believe sand20go said it best, " Vlad 2 Wolves is life." Unlike auraco , I've not yet tired of Vlad 2 since I just don't have enough games in yet! I own all the jacks you might want to take in a 29 point pair. Some options I've been toying with. (You'd think this part would be easy...) 1) Grolar & Marauder. The Grolar adds some much appreciated pathfinder, a 10" run, and a mofo that hits like a brick house. The Marauder with Assail is hilarious. 2) Destroyer & Decimator. I would normally not reach for my Decimator, but the points workstwo ranged jacks seem like a good idea, and Beat Back seems like a decent addition to the scenario game. 3) Devastator & Decimator I could be convinced to swap in a Devastator for an Assail target and zone clearing. 4) Juggernaut & Demolisher. Again, who reaches for a Demolisher? But it'll do the job of the Devastator up above, and maybe provide some blast damage protection for some troops. 5) Marauder + Rager + Berserker. OK, hear me out. Vlad wants to be central, but he can be a bit exposed. You want to be sending at least one jack into each of the the scenarios with lateral zones, which worsens this conundrum. The solution? Bring a 3rd jack. The Rager is there as a meat shield, pure and simple, both as a shield guard and a speed bump. The Marauder and Berserker play laterally to cover the size zones. I'll put my thoughts on a 2nd list in another post. |
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 6, 2019 23:08:37 GMT
My driving thoughts behind a 2nd list are these:
1) Wolves is my primary drop. My 2nd list should cover its weaknesses.
2) I want a list that can handle dedicated shooting and infantry hate like overtake pac man b.s.
3) I want a list that can deliver truly high POW output when needed.
In terms of themes, I'm looking only at Armored Korp, WGK, and Jaws.
In terms of casters, I want to stick just to those that I'm already comfortable with, since I will only get in a handful of games before Gen Con. Primary contenders are Vlad 1, Sorscha 3, Butcher 3, and Karchev.
Aside: as I noodle on my 2nd list, I'm annoyed that the new theme rules aren't available.
Vlad 1
Vlad 1 feels safe as houses to me. I'm a rocket list fanboy. Some people think Vlad 1 is boring. I don't think rolling extra dice is boring. The arrival of the Adjunct and Sorscha 0 are leading me back to The Boss. Vlad likes a combined arms approach which seems tailor made to the new scenario packet.
In terms of load out, I'm not yet sold. What I like about this build? 6 jacks, 6 rockets, a dedicated unit to handle two zones/flanks, and Sorscha 0 on standby to help send 2 loaded jacks 14" downfield on feat turn. I left the Gun Carriage mostly because I think I'd rather have a 2nd mobile unit (for 5 fewer points) to cover wide zones, and Gun Carraiges don't actually hit particularly hard (thinking about facing double derps).
Sorscha 3
I really like Sorscha 3, and my go-to build with her when pairing with Doomreavers starts with Double Shocktroopers. I feel like the Adjunct is mandatory in order to deal with incorporeal solos, and that hitting 60 points in MOW is mandatory. The build below could be easily tweaked - e.g. swap out 2 Kodiaks for Marauders, and reach for Ragman; swap out a unit of Shocks for Democorp or Bombadiers, etc. Comments welcome.
Karchev
So I've played Karchev a bit now in the new scenario packet, and... he struggles a bit. When I tried him with a decent Winterguard load out, I really wanted Vlad 1 instead. When I ran him in Jaws with 8 jacks, I felt punished in the new scenario packet. The following seems like a decent balance which gets strictly better when the new rules drop.
Butcher 3
OK, the crazy idea I have for a potential Jaws list is to run him with both Juniors, with Malakov piloting Victor. Victor holds one flank, and Butcher holds the other. The Kayazy run up front at the stealthy speed bump. This might be inspired, but it probably sucks.
In terms of a Winterguard build, once again I find I'm reaching for two decent units to hold each flank. And, of course, this 2nd list is supposed to be able to deal with shooting, so Butcher wants his own unit of shield guards. Sorscha 0, Ruin, and the Adjunct were auto includes. I filled the rest of the points with Marauders. 5 heavies seems strictly better than 4, and this load out seems very well equipped to handle large bases.
Thanks for commenting.
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mrtuna
Junior Strategist
Posts: 117
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Post by mrtuna on Jul 7, 2019 3:05:31 GMT
I would do destroyer plus kodiak for vlad jacks, and take your s3 list. Covers a good set of matchups
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 7, 2019 10:34:56 GMT
1) Grolar & Marauder. The Grolar adds some much appreciated pathfinder, a 10" run, and a mofo that hits like a brick house. The Marauder with Assail is hilarious. Interesting, I rather like this idea. 2) Destroyer & Decimator. I would normally not reach for my Decimator, but the points workstwo ranged jacks seem like a good idea, and Beat Back seems like a decent addition to the scenario game. 3) Devastator & Decimator I could be convinced to swap in a Devastator for an Assail target and zone clearing. I'm not sure if an unsupported Decimator is that competitive; I feel like a Decimator at least wants Repo to keep it's distance until the right time. I feel like it's worth considering playing a point or two down and swapping for a Juggernaut, Kodiak or Destroyer. Personally I would love to see the Decimator see more table time though. 5) Marauder + Rager + Berserker. OK, hear me out. Vlad wants to be central, but he can be a bit exposed. You want to be sending at least one jack into each of the the scenarios with lateral zones, which worsens this conundrum. The solution? Bring a 3rd jack. The Rager is there as a meat shield, pure and simple, both as a shield guard and a speed bump. The Marauder and Berserker play laterally to cover the size zones. I want to like this, but I would really try to squeeze out another two or three points (so lose one Escort I guess) to upgrade the Berserker to a Marauder, or at least another Rager; a single Berserker is not the best zone holder after all. |
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 7, 2019 10:44:29 GMT
Ruin + Marauder, perhaps? I think your options are putting too much emphasis on using every point; being 1 point down but having more useful jacks is fine. I'd not be keen on any of the ones with a Decimator or a Demolisher. Nor the Rager one. Grolar + Marauder has a nice feel to it.
I'm not keen on the Vlad1 list for one reason; the Berzerker. If I had to guess, I think you approached the list saying 'I want 5 jacks, and Sorscha0', and then filled in the list with WGI to taste. But that Berzerker is pretty meaningless: It won't get any benefit from V1's feat, and you're not likely to waste S0's buff on it when you have better jacks around. Without either of those it's not really going to be doing much, so it's an awful lot like paying 12 points for S0.
I'd drop the Berzerker entirely, move one of the Marauders on to her, and upgrade it to a Destroyer. You still have 5 jacks. At threat 16" it can still participate on feat turn, and it will still benefit from SnP. It's a great zone scorer, and it's great target for Guidance. It can gleefully get by on just the Power Up focus from S0, and you can have a fully boosted shot whilst upkeeping FoW and casting a BC. If push comes to shove it can be fully loaded and do a better job than the Berzerker in melee. All that, and it's 5 points cheaper.
I think V1 hybrid lists like this are worth keeping an eye on, though. Rumour has it that 3x WA will be a Requisition option in a number of themes, and if one of those is WGK you'll be potentially freeing up a lot of points.
With the Sorscha3 list I certainly wouldn't take Bombardiers, but there's merit to the Demo Corps. I'm not sure you need both Kovniks, so you could drop one of them for Ragman. I'd be tempted to find a way to get a Drakhun in there, perhaps. Maybe drop a Tanker and a Kovnik? But that list looks reasonably solid anyway, the rest is just tinkering.
I like the Karchev list, but I don't have much experience with him. Seems straightforward.
I don't run B3 at all, so I can't comment on those.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 7, 2019 14:38:27 GMT
Thanks, folks. Please keep the feedback coming. This is helpful. hocestbellum , you're completely right about this: Dropping a Marauder and Berserker to fit in a Destroyer on Sorscha 0 frees up 5 points. What would you spend the points on? If upgrading the jacks, I could fit in a Spriggan or Grolar... Alternately, I could drop the Berserker altogether and spend the 8 points on additional Winterguard, which - incidentally - is exactly what I need to get the list cranked up to 2 free models. (Note, I can only field 2 min units of WGI since I only own 12 infantryman, which dictates the build a bit). I always hate losing a rocket, but I quite like picking up 2 more advance moves and a full unit of WGI. With 3 Marauders in the list, the Mortars will have a field day. |
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Post by borderprince on Jul 7, 2019 17:00:24 GMT
You're not that far off my Vlad1 list, in a sense (except I drop 2 rockets and a Juggernaut for the Gun Carriage).
Immediate change to make - move on rocket from WGI to WGRC. You'll get more use out of it that way.
Otherwise - it works. The trick is just knowing when to feat to get 2 BC Marauders into 2 huge bases. Once that happens, matches tend to tilt your way.
If not that, then probably Sorscha3. I'd probably swap a Kodiak for a Marauder (really helps against huge bases - Kodiaks + Flank can do work against huge bases, but I find Sorscha3 can be a little focus strapped, so having an innate additional D6 damage per attack is great) and get a Tinker for a little bit of repair.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 7, 2019 22:24:38 GMT
borderprince , I think you’re exactly right about moving the rocket. It will live longer and get more shots as part of the Vlad Protection Detail. sand20go , how do you like this second attempt of the Vlad 1 list? Also, I’m sold on Eliminators with Vlad 2, but not at all sold on dropping from 5 units of Doomreavers to 4. Current draft lists: Khador - Vlad 1 WGK 56 - GenCon Draft Theme: Winter Guard Kommand 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Prince - WJ: +28 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4 - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2) - Marauder - PC: 11 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 4 - Marauder - PC: 11 Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 4 Winter Guard Infantry - Leader & 9 Grunts: 10 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 4 Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0 Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0 Khador - Vlad 2 Winter - Gen Con Draft Theme: Wolves of Winter 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Champion - WJ: +27 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 0 - Grolar - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) Koldun Lord - PC: 0 Koldun Lord - PC: 0 Alexia, Mistress of the Witchfire - PC: 7 - Thrall Warrior Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Greylord Outriders - Leader & 2 Grunts: 10 (Still debating the jack build).
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Post by sand20go on Jul 7, 2019 22:40:44 GMT
borderprince, I think you’re exactly right about moving the rocket. It will live longer and get more shots as part of the Vlad Protection Detail. sand20go, how do you like this second attempt? Also, I’m sold on Eliminators, but not at all sold on dropping from 5 units of Doomreavers to 4. I'm an idiot. Where can I fand revised vlad2 list |
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 7, 2019 23:27:09 GMT
borderprince, I think you’re exactly right about moving the rocket. It will live longer and get more shots as part of the Vlad Protection Detail. sand20go, how do you like this second attempt? Also, I’m sold on Eliminators, but not at all sold on dropping from 5 units of Doomreavers to 4. I'm an idiot. Where can I fand revised vlad2 list Vlad 1 list is revised above, but Vlad 2 Wolves is steady eddy (first post). |
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Post by sand20go on Jul 8, 2019 2:32:17 GMT
All fine but I like eliminators
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 8, 2019 2:36:31 GMT
I like them too! I promise that if I drop to 4 units of doomreavers to start stuffing new things in, then I will find room for the girls.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 8, 2019 5:02:59 GMT
Ooh, just thought of something for your Vlad2 29 point package: how about a Juggernaut and two Berserkers?
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 8, 2019 11:32:45 GMT
Ooh, just thought of something for your Vlad2 29 point package: how about a Juggernaut and two Berserkers? OK, I don’t dislike this. But why do you like the above but not a Marauder, Rager and Berserker combo? |
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 8, 2019 12:05:46 GMT
OK, I don’t dislike this. But why do you like the above but not a Marauder, Rager and Berserker combo? I don't exactly like it more, I just thought it was an option worth considering; I feel like the advantage of Berserkers, their low price, works best when you spam them. So I was just thinking if you're trying to squeeze three jacks in, then you have the option of making one of them a slightly more pricey one. |
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