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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 5, 2019 6:36:55 GMT
To be fair here, I was the one calling P16 pillow-fisted, not Sand.
Not that I disagree with you; I don't think mass Destroyers is efficient. I quite like having one as a shooty crouton in my axe-based salad, though. Handy for dealing with poorly placed solos and support units, or softening chunky stuff, and a good for scoring back zones whilst remaining relevant.
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Post by steeltitan on Jul 5, 2019 8:03:34 GMT
This just in: Rager still sucks, unless something changes. Our only hope is that Winter Guard Kommand’s Sacrifical Pawn benefit remains. Details at 11. ...in August. I dont think that Ragers suck. Ive been taking one frequently, especially on S0 and I think it has a place protecting more important pieces. It can also do more damage than you'd expect.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 5, 2019 11:02:22 GMT
I'm not a big fan of the Rager in most circumstances. I can see the use of Shield Guard, but at the same time I don't want to pay 10 points for one. If it's something like Beast-09 or Sofia, it's fine; I'm paying X points for a good model that happens to have Shield Guard.
But the Rager is just Shield Guard; it's terrible as a jack. It's 1 point less than the Marauder to have less boxes, less accuracy, less damage, and to be unreliable to boot. Three initials means it takes buffs well, but they really only bring it up to par.
So unless it's something like Karchev or OW2 who are nigh-impossible to screen, then I don't think I'd take one. Even then maybe...
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Post by lorddragonmaster on Jul 5, 2019 12:36:59 GMT
I'm not a big fan of the Rager in most circumstances. I can see the use of Shield Guard, but at the same time I don't want to pay 10 points for one. If it's something like Beast-09 or Sofia, it's fine; I'm paying X points for a good model that happens to have Shield Guard. But the Rager is just Shield Guard; it's terrible as a jack. It's 1 point less than the Marauder to have less boxes, less accuracy, less damage, and to be unreliable to boot. Three initials means it takes buffs well, but they really only bring it up to par. So unless it's something like Karchev or OW2 who are nigh-impossible to screen, then I don't think I'd take one. Even then maybe... I've been using him to fill in a 10 point slot in AC with Sorcha3. I've already got 3 Marauders, and a 10 point shield guard, with 3 initials and getting a boost from flank makes him worth it. MAT 8, and P+S 15 with 3 dice aren't bad. Also protected Sorscha from drag a couple of times. After that I just use him to engage something and buy time.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 5, 2019 13:46:07 GMT
MAT 8 P+S 15 3 dice damage isn't bad, but the context is important: The only jack in Khador that would do less damage than the Rager under normal circumstances is the Mad Dog. Yes, even the Berzerker does more despite having one less initial. Flank does mess with the maths; if I've got my sums right it leapfrogs the Berzerker. Still not exactly tearing up trees.
And think about the opportunity cost; that's two Tankers. For the cost of a Rager and a solo you could take an Assault Chariot, or a full unit of Demo Corps, or any of the much better commonly-run jacks.
I'll happily admit to some bias here though; I try to keep my lists as light on support models as possible. For a while the support in my AC list was a single Kovnik, and I've only added Ragman since then.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 5, 2019 13:56:15 GMT
I'm not a big fan of the Rager in most circumstances. I can see the use of Shield Guard, but at the same time I don't want to pay 10 points for one. If it's something like Beast-09 or Sofia, it's fine; I'm paying X points for a good model that happens to have Shield Guard. But the Rager is just Shield Guard; it's terrible as a jack. It's 1 point less than the Marauder to have less boxes, less accuracy, less damage, and to be unreliable to boot. Three initials means it takes buffs well, but they really only bring it up to par. So unless it's something like Karchev or OW2 who are nigh-impossible to screen, then I don't think I'd take one. Even then maybe... I've been using him to fill in a 10 point slot in AC with Sorcha3. I've already got 3 Marauders, and a 10 point shield guard, with 3 initials and getting a boost from flank makes him worth it. MAT 8, and P+S 15 with 3 dice aren't bad. Also protected Sorscha from drag a couple of times. After that I just use him to engage something and buy time. I like the Rager with Sorscha 3 a lot. I love the idea of 4 jacks with Sorscha 3, but before the theme update drops are you screwing scenario by not leaving room for the Adjunct? Something like this seems really good, but for no magic weapons.... War Room Army Khador - Sorscha 3 AK 2x Shocks 4J Theme: Armored Corps 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Kommandant Sorscha Kratikoff - WJ: +28 - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6) - Rager - PC: 10 Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Strike Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Strike Tanker - PC: 5 Man-O-War Kovnik - PC: 4 Man-O-War Kovnik - PC: 4 Man-O-War Shocktroopers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer - PC: 4 Man-O-War Shocktroopers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer - PC: 4 Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard
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Post by michael on Jul 5, 2019 14:20:17 GMT
You really shouldn’t count your Harkevich before they hatch. We have no idea whether he or any of the jacks will change. one of my most wtf dissonance moments is when people refer to ps16 as pillow fisted but want to try hard to make pow 14 rat 4 shooting work. Right there with you, dude. But, to be fair, a maximum of 4 P+S 16 attacks are pillow-fisted against other heavies. The ROI for a Black Ivan (heretofore unbuffed, because Hark has no damage buffs) versus a heavy target was always poor, compared to the typical Juggernaut example.
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Post by michael on Jul 5, 2019 14:25:01 GMT
This just in: Rager still sucks, unless something changes. Our only hope is that Winter Guard Kommand’s Sacrifical Pawn benefit remains. Details at 11. ...in August. I dont think that Ragers suck. Ive been taking one frequently, especially on S0 and I think it has a place protecting more important pieces. It can also do more damage than you'd expect. I have never, ever, ever been impressed by the Rager’s output. It is an expensive Shield Guard in a faction hurting for Shield Guard; that’s all, for me. Edited to add: oh, good! Somebody else provided some of the math support that I didn’t feel like adding. Sorscha3 is our single biggest warjack turd polisher and, yes, one of the very few places I would not absolutely despise using a Rager. But, that’s mostly because she can turn in stellar performances from other cheap warjacks, and the Rager doesn’t have to carry as much weight overall. So...
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 5, 2019 15:26:35 GMT
michael, you’ve nailed it re Sorscha 3. People talking about Karchev in Armored Korp confuse me, since Sorscha 3 is - I think - strictly better between her Field Marshall ability and Stoke. Karchev has to choose between accelerated movement and countercharge, but Sorscha does not. Also, Karchev lacks any particularly useful delivery mechanism whereas Sorscha 3 does not.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 5, 2019 16:15:17 GMT
I've considered the Rager as a marshalled jack. Three initials to take advantage of Crush and Blessed seems to be better than anything cheaper than a Juggernaut? Plus with focus and Strike True or Take Aim the gun is... not completely awful?
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Post by lorddragonmaster on Jul 5, 2019 16:57:41 GMT
My AC Sorsha3 list with the Rager: conflictchamber.com/?c3201b_-0Tk_kTkTkTkZl5l4l4l3l387l2l7l17QgdKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps [Sorscha 3] Kommandant Sorscha Kratikoff [+28] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] - Rager [10] Man-O-War Kovnik [4] Man-O-War Strike Tanker [5] Man-O-War Strike Tanker [5] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Battle Mechaniks (max) [5] Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard [7] Man-O-War Demolition Corps (max) [14] - Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich [0(6)] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4]
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Post by mcdermott on Jul 6, 2019 0:01:23 GMT
one of my most wtf dissonance moments is when people refer to ps16 as pillow fisted but want to try hard to make pow 14 rat 4 shooting work. Right there with you, dude. But, to be fair, a maximum of 4 P+S 16 attacks are pillow-fisted against other heavies. The ROI for a Black Ivan (heretofore unbuffed, because Hark has no damage buffs) versus a heavy target was always poor, compared to the typical Juggernaut example And being honest, I love the idea of the strategy hark is supposed to represent, the idea of ceaseless bombarding mortar fire from jacks and weapon crews is one of the strongest strategies in the tech time frame Warmachine is trying to parallel. Honestly if warjack ranged weapons got a blanket +2 pow increase itd be something.
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Post by michael on Jul 6, 2019 0:16:02 GMT
Right there with you, dude. But, to be fair, a maximum of 4 P+S 16 attacks are pillow-fisted against other heavies. The ROI for a Black Ivan (heretofore unbuffed, because Hark has no damage buffs) versus a heavy target was always poor, compared to the typical Juggernaut example And being honest, I love the idea of the strategy hark is supposed to represent, the idea of ceaseless bombarding mortar fire from jacks and weapon crews is one of the strongest strategies in the tech time frame Warmachine is trying to parallel. Honestly if warjack ranged weapons got a blanket +2 pow increase itd be something. I kicked around some half-formed ideas of how to make that strategy work, but I just don't think it works well in Steamroller, where you're forced to close that gap ASAP or else lose. Also, it's a fine, fine line between "this seems to work well" and "I carpet bomb you to death, good game".
I often consider reaching for him in Unbound matches, when I can stack him with some ridiculous number of Destroyers and Victors without completely hamstringing my game plan. Sometimes it works well!
...But that is Unbound, where I can afford to have (say) a 120-point battlegroup and blow the crap out of some buildings over the course of two or three turns and win.
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Post by mcdermott on Jul 6, 2019 0:26:11 GMT
Truth. Especially with the concept of arcing fire.
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smoth
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
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Post by smoth on Jul 9, 2019 4:01:12 GMT
STOP GETTING ME EXCITED! OMG WHY DO YOU MAKE ME WANT TO FINISH MY JUGGER PILE!
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