shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Jul 2, 2019 4:28:57 GMT
This is a very interesting perspective. Which do you guys prefer, or would think it best for PP in the long run between: WM/H being put in " Maintenance Mode", i.e., no active development but occasional tweaks (think Starcraft_1 shortly before Starcraft's 2 release), where the game will likely plateau and condense into its hardcore fanbase (similar to Battletech). Or the developers artificially creating new design space by cutting SKUs in order to produce brand new ones? I'm guessing you know what my answer is. But if what you say is true, in order for PP to keep their promise of never cutting models, it seems their only choice is to just not add new ones. This is an interesting perspective, but my concern is that products that don't generate money don't stay active for long. Now, i don't know for certain that would be the case here, but with sales and retail space shrinking i couldn't see it sticking around long when PP would have to constantly invest in it. If they kept it in "maintenance mode" for a while and just did small incremental updates though, it might put some of the concerns that many once players would have to rest? Give them a reason to come back and play on their own time knowing that there are no going under concers? Not sure, thinking out loud here.
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juckto
Junior Strategist
Posts: 124
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Post by juckto on Jul 2, 2019 5:18:32 GMT
I think there is still plenty of scope for existing themes to be fleshed out. I mean, for chrissakes, there are still no Nyarr models (mentioned in Legions of Dawn) (caster fluff excluded).
Whether that takes the form of a dribble of isolated releases for multiple factions (like the Bane Knights Officer and Garryth2) or medium-sized releases for a single faction (like most of the theme expansions done over the last two years) ... well, that remains to be seen.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Jul 2, 2019 5:53:28 GMT
I think there is still plenty of scope for existing themes to be fleshed out. I mean, for chrissakes, there are still no Nyarr models (mentioned in Legions of Dawn) (caster fluff excluded). Whether that takes the form of a dribble of isolated releases for multiple factions (like the Bane Knights Officer and Garryth2) or medium-sized releases for a single faction (like most of the theme expansions done over the last two years) ... well, that remains to be seen. What do you mean by Nyarr models? dawnguard characters models? unless I'm mistaken, house Nyarr just means dawnguard? I've mentioned it either in this thread or another, but I think it's a shame that there aren't more vyre models. IIRC there was talk of a Vyre theme a couple of months ago, so I'd expect some sort of Vyre infantry and maybe a new light to come out at some point. Of course, as per usual, we'll see just have to sit tight and see whether PP decides to continue production or to crash the stormbreaker with no survivors.
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Post by falkman on Jul 2, 2019 8:37:06 GMT
The Legions of Dawn theme specifically mentions House Nyarr models and Dawnguard models as two separate things that can be included, and since there are no models currently in the game with the House Nyarr tag Retribution players have long taken this as a sign of new models being planned for future release. Whether or not we will ever see any House Nyarr models remain to be seen.
Fluff-wise all Dawnguard belong to House Nyarr, but not everyone in House Nyarr is a Dawnguard, since there still has to be people doing a lot of other stuff to make a Great House function.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 2, 2019 8:53:41 GMT
I assumed it was just that they're starting to take the need for diversification seriously. Skirmish games are super popular at the moment, so things like Riot Quest are a good move. Giving CoI a bit more attention would also be good. Bonus points since both games use the same models as their flagship game.
Monsterpocalypse is a wholly separate thing, but tying into the same small-game boom.
I think SpaceMachine is trying to tap into the sci-fi crowd, and also establishing a second 'main' game. GW was able to absorb the loss of WHFB and initial flop of AoS because it had other things shoring it up. At the moment PP is nothing but WMH, and that needs to change.
And the fluff behind all of these is just the token effort of PP putting a tablecloth over everything and saying it's covered. In the long run the games will sink or swim based on how good they are as games, not because of the fluff tying them to each other.
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Post by borderprince on Jul 2, 2019 10:30:01 GMT
... but at some point they should remember what made their minis/game enticing Which was?
Not being difficult, genuinely interested. Possibilities I can see are:
(1) IK setting. Steampunk + Magic. I like this. But PP aren't unique in offering that now;
(2) Well-written and clear rules that interact clearly and cleanly. Not setting specific, but still something of a strength for PP (although Infernal support seems to have dropped);
(3) Speed of play - Warmachine used to be pretty fast to play. That's much less the case now the default format is 75 points. And again, other products offer it too.
Only one of those is necessarily lost if they move to a different game, and that's the setting.
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seul
Demo Gamer
Posts: 15
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Post by seul on Jul 2, 2019 10:59:29 GMT
I'm not sure I "follow along".
I'm more of the opinion:
There's a wave of 30 models shared with RiotQuest coming to the game over the next few months. There's already rumors flying about the next faction-like releases after that such as convergence and a couple more which would probably bring releases to at least the spring if not next summer.
As far as including a new physical rule book. I am of the mind that they thought the extent of the new changes plus the accumulation of erratas made it a good time. Especially when they wanted to have a nice box set. Some people might buy the new box for 1 of three things now (or all), a model, a physical rule book (some people like physical books), or the campaign stuff.
Reading more of your post, like this paragraph I think you are just trolling now and it is even harder to take your post seriously.
"Remember #DesignSpace? PP needed more design space so that they had more stuff to sell, and things like battle engines and colossals only gave so much room. (Never mind the rules bloat.) So instead of growing outward a lot with full-blown new factions (How much do you think they are going to fill out the Crucible Guard and the Grymkin?) they decided to grow their factions deeper with new mini-factions – themes. They screwed that up also. CID comes in – time to do clean-up. CID has pretty good results, but the medicine is as bad as the illness. Players are leaving with all of the change being generated and the theme army generation rules are becoming a mess. Did the L&L announcement that the theme force rules were going to change to just simply give freebies for every 25 points seem to come out of nowhere to anyone else? Smart idea, but it also tells me that the design guys are giving up."
Saying they have "given up", that limited release factions are "they screwed that up also." is completely on the doom train. So yes I can't take you seriously. It comes across as finding the worst in any situation at best, or trolling at worst.
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Post by Havock on Jul 2, 2019 13:41:50 GMT
Hello good law-abiding citizens of the motherland! What's going on in this th-Jesus christ
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 2, 2019 14:12:40 GMT
Hello good law-abiding citizens of the motherland! What's going on in this th- Jesus christThe correct blasphemy is obviously 'by the Empress!'
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Post by sand20go on Jul 2, 2019 16:10:26 GMT
I'm not sure I "follow along". I'm more of the opinion: There's a wave of 30 models shared with RiotQuest coming to the game over the next few months. There's already rumors flying about the next faction-like releases after that such as convergence and a couple more which would probably bring releases to at least the spring if not next summer. As far as including a new physical rule book. I am of the mind that they thought the extent of the new changes plus the accumulation of erratas made it a good time. Especially when they wanted to have a nice box set. Some people might buy the new box for 1 of three things now (or all), a model, a physical rule book (some people like physical books), or the campaign stuff. Reading more of your post, like this paragraph I think you are just trolling now and it is even harder to take your post seriously. "Remember #DesignSpace? PP needed more design space so that they had more stuff to sell, and things like battle engines and colossals only gave so much room. (Never mind the rules bloat.) So instead of growing outward a lot with full-blown new factions (How much do you think they are going to fill out the Crucible Guard and the Grymkin?) they decided to grow their factions deeper with new mini-factions – themes. They screwed that up also. CID comes in – time to do clean-up. CID has pretty good results, but the medicine is as bad as the illness. Players are leaving with all of the change being generated and the theme army generation rules are becoming a mess. Did the L&L announcement that the theme force rules were going to change to just simply give freebies for every 25 points seem to come out of nowhere to anyone else? Smart idea, but it also tells me that the design guys are giving up." Saying they have "given up", that limited release factions are "they screwed that up also." is completely on the doom train. So yes I can't take you seriously. It comes across as finding the worst in any situation at best, or trolling at worst. +1. Near as I can tell the game is in a pretty good place - at least on the West Coast for the mid-tier and up. Compared to 2 years ago MANY more Steamrollers, larger events, etc. etc.
The main issue I continue to have is entry point for new blood. You simply have to have a decent amount of entry into the hobby to keep revenues growing and a virtuous circle of activity. But I have long ago reconciled that marketing chops are not a strength of the Wilson family and until ownership gets diluted this is not going to EVER be solved.
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Post by jagius021 on Jul 2, 2019 16:32:54 GMT
The Legions of Dawn theme specifically mentions House Nyarr models and Dawnguard models as two separate things that can be included, and since there are no models currently in the game with the House Nyarr tag Retribution players have long taken this as a sign of new models being planned for future release. Whether or not we will ever see any House Nyarr models remain to be seen. Fluff-wise all Dawnguard belong to House Nyarr, but not everyone in House Nyarr is a Dawnguard, since there still has to be people doing a lot of other stuff to make a Great House function. The problem with your post is that you forgot to validate the OP's point. You did the opposite and point out something contrasting it. How dare you. He thought long and hard on how to be edgy and spell doom so he could feel validated. How inconsiderate of you.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jul 2, 2019 16:53:07 GMT
People -- you're wrong if you think they're going to stop releasing Warmachine and Hordes models just because they have new games coming out. You're wrong if you think they'll keep releasing at the same pace they've been doing for the past few years. 3 new Themes a year, with around 6 to 10 new entries per Theme, with God knows how many individual models per entry, plus a brand new Faction each year. Yup, I'm pretty much willing to bet they won't maintain that pace with Warcaster, Mon Poc, and Riot Quest in their portfolio. Warcaster has to launch with at least 2 factions, each with at least 10 entries to keep it interesting (and to hit their 20 models per side goal). I'm guessing they'll go back to the yearly Anthology model, but box everything Oblivion style (so no separate WM and Hordes books, just one box for everyone). Expect releases for WM/H to slow down noticeably, and hope the Riot Quest models will fit into your armies (or hell, just play them because Fat-er Butcher looks awesome!)
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Post by Havock on Jul 2, 2019 17:14:47 GMT
Hello good law-abiding citizens of the motherland! What's going on in this th- Jesus christThe correct blasphemy is obviously 'by the Empress!' I broke character.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 2, 2019 17:36:12 GMT
People -- you're wrong if you think they're going to stop releasing Warmachine and Hordes models just because they have new games coming out. You're wrong if you think they'll keep releasing at the same pace they've been doing for the past few years. 3 new Themes a year, with around 6 to 10 new entries per Theme, with God knows how many individual models per entry, plus a brand new Faction each year. Yup, I'm pretty much willing to bet they won't maintain that pace with Warcaster, Mon Poc, and Riot Quest in their portfolio. Warcaster has to launch with at least 2 factions, each with at least 10 entries to keep it interesting (and to hit their 20 models per side goal). I'm guessing they'll go back to the yearly Anthology model, but box everything Oblivion style (so no separate WM and Hordes books, just one box for everyone). Expect releases for WM/H to slow down noticeably, and hope the Riot Quest models will fit into your armies (or hell, just play them because Fat-er Butcher looks awesome!) +1.
Though I _THINK_ there is an argument to be made that there MAY be places for some theme additions. Non-pirate cryx would seem a place for that. Possibly Stormknight areas of Cygnar. Definitely Farrow. Possibly Dwwarves. Possibly something obscure in Retribution - a faction I remain deeply confused about as to who works with whom and why.
What I would definitely agree with is that we are unlikely to see a new FACTION until 2021 or maybe 2022. Makes sense. They can not run a company of their size successfully relying on the current business model. They HAVE to get a new game onto the market - ideally growing market from both existing players (who will increase their purchase volume over the handfull of solos or extra units they are buying to round things out) and players new to PP.
I do think we will see a few more things like the Horse theme or hearts of darkness that blends across factions. For example, it would be interesting to see a mixed Troll-Cygnar theme that focuses on forests (so rangers, scouts, etc.). Big lore shift but I have to believe that there would be value for PP in trying to get some cross pollination with Cryx - since there are
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Jul 2, 2019 18:10:38 GMT
You're wrong if you think they'll keep releasing at the same pace they've been doing for the past few years. 3 new Themes a year, with around 6 to 10 new entries per Theme, with God knows how many individual models per entry, plus a brand new Faction each year. Yup, I'm pretty much willing to bet they won't maintain that pace with Warcaster, Mon Poc, and Riot Quest in their portfolio. Warcaster has to launch with at least 2 factions, each with at least 10 entries to keep it interesting (and to hit their 20 models per side goal). I'm guessing they'll go back to the yearly Anthology model, but box everything Oblivion style (so no separate WM and Hordes books, just one box for everyone). Expect releases for WM/H to slow down noticeably, and hope the Riot Quest models will fit into your armies (or hell, just play them because Fat-er Butcher looks awesome!) +1.
Though I _THINK_ there is an argument to be made that there MAY be places for some theme additions. Non-pirate cryx would seem a place for that. Possibly Stormknight areas of Cygnar. Definitely Farrow. Possibly Dwwarves. Possibly something obscure in Retribution - a faction I remain deeply confused about as to who works with whom and why.
What I would definitely agree with is that we are unlikely to see a new FACTION until 2021 or maybe 2022. Makes sense. They can not run a company of their size successfully relying on the current business model. They HAVE to get a new game onto the market - ideally growing market from both existing players (who will increase their purchase volume over the handfull of solos or extra units they are buying to round things out) and players new to PP.
I do think we will see a few more things like the Horse theme or hearts of darkness that blends across factions. For example, it would be interesting to see a mixed Troll-Cygnar theme that focuses on forests (so rangers, scouts, etc.). Big lore shift but I have to believe that there would be value for PP in trying to get some cross pollination with Cryx - since there are
+1 I actually think that going to a yearly anthology system and letting the other games shine for a bit might be one of the best things PP can do for WMH. Constant CID, rules changes, and the perception (real or otherwise) of power creep and a completely stagnant scenario packet have taken their toll on the player base. It is at a point where, at least i think, that if they want to bring back players to the game they are going to have to lay off of the constant releases of new factions, new rules and revisions and power creep (again, real or perceived doesn't matter here)
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