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Post by Azahul on Jul 6, 2019 19:18:19 GMT
Also don't the threnches with Helga create a serious "no go" zone when interacting with the Helga and the River Raiders? Now you have Def 18 Raiders with some immunity to blasts (outside the trench). Threat of 12 to start slamming shit back into your Beasts who don't have to dail up any more. Feels....well...pretty good. Sadly the only Swamp Gobbers allowed in Thornfall are the chefs. Helga is firmly locked into WWFF because playing without River Raider slams is wrong and unfun
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Post by custardboy on Jul 6, 2019 23:42:45 GMT
The Farrow casters who want warrior models don't want Farrow. That's always been the case. Currently I'd only consider Carver in the new Thornfall. His feat gives overtake anyway, salvage is nice on more durable beasts and he isn't too fussed about the juniors or support. The free models and point fillers are inferior though, so it isn't a sure thing.
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Post by gobber on Jul 7, 2019 0:56:05 GMT
I figured it out. Bicycles. Pigs on bicycles. Hungerford said we weren't getting any motorcycle pigcav to accompany Helga2, but that doesn't rule out bicycles
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Post by Azahul on Jul 7, 2019 1:31:00 GMT
The Farrow casters who want warrior models don't want Farrow. That's always been the case. Currently I'd only consider Carver in the new Thornfall. His feat gives overtake anyway, salvage is nice on more durable beasts and he isn't too fussed about the juniors or support. The free models and point fillers are inferior though, so it isn't a sure thing. That does really hit the nail on the head, I think. I mean, Midas does ok with pig infantry, I don't think he's outright bad with them, he's just deathly boring to play. Helga benefits enormously from the ability to freely run a mixed arms list, but she really wants to be in WWFF (once Void Archons release there is no way she would ever be seen without them). I can't imagine playing Sturm and Drang again without a Gargantuan to anchor the list, and that's currently only an option in WWFF. Arkadius is Arkadius... and Carver really does nothing to help Farrow infantry in any meaningful way. I guess all eyes are on Helga2? Otherwise it remains a niche Midas option, just a bit better than it was previously.
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Post by custardboy on Jul 7, 2019 7:28:09 GMT
But even so, Midas would be far stronger in any infantry theme in the game rather than Thornfall. Farrow infantry just aren't the types he wants. Brigands would be close if he could arc.
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Post by ghoulio on Jul 7, 2019 14:07:57 GMT
I find it interesting that while they have clearly improved the theme it seems like those improvements really haven’t actually done anything to actually make the theme all that viable outside of fun games. I was really hoping you could do Thornfall and have it be on par with Blindwater. I am guessing they will need to wait a few years before actually getting a real update like Blindwater. Who knows when that will be as they definitely seem to be moving far away from that release model and more into supplementing armies with releases from Riot Quest instead. Ah well, we will find out soon enough I guess.
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Post by Azahul on Jul 7, 2019 15:33:33 GMT
Well, it's not even that the theme is bad. We just don't have a Warlock who would excel at running it. We have two Warlocks I'd characterise as infantry Warlocks, Helga and Midas, but Helga will never play in Thornfall because all the cool teleporting and jumping solos that actually make her entertaining to play are in WWFF. Midas will see play in Thornfall, and I'd even say he's competitive in Thornfall, but he functions primarily as an anti-skew. He worked fine in that role pre-Oblivion update (albeit always a bit weak on scenario play), and now that exact list can just about be copy and pasted across but with far more delivery options. The only issue there is that skew lists aren't popular right now, thanks to Primal Terrors and Devourer's Host having basically driven them from the meta over the last twelve months. It isn't that Midas Thornfall Alliance wouldn't work in a competitive format, it's just the list doesn't currently have a role in a list pair. There's also the option now of treating Thornfall as a Warbeast theme, and I don't disagree with custardboy that Carver is reasonably well placed for that. He'll lose some utility on the solo front, but a 0 camp Warlock is never going to say no to some free trenches to hide in. Midas running 'beast heavy (or combined arms) has some interesting play too, his Feat is very interesting if you can arrange for two or three Warbeasts to trigger Salvage on the turn they come back to get themselves back above half health, but that's pretty match-up dependent. Mostly though, it's a feature of Thornfall Alliance being a limited theme with minimal Warbeast support, and a roster of Warlocks who would rather be running Warbeasts instead of infantry.
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Post by galiman on Jul 7, 2019 16:14:59 GMT
This is my take as well. I ran your old Midas list through the new theme with know changes (assuming splatter boars stay 8 to keep both lights interchangeable) You get one more solo than you used to since slaughterhouser get 4 extra points. It did fine-ish. Obviously we don’t know all the details but unless they do some major changes to our casters I think farrow infantry will still sit this one out. Also I think I’m in the minority when after years of the dust settling I think blindwater is a deceptively restrictive theme. Playing anything but posse feels really bad since all the benefits are for them. Adding croaks or ambushers just takes away form the benefits. Here’s hoping that changes. (Like can posse just have innate snacking? It just makes sense)
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Post by Azahul on Jul 7, 2019 16:58:22 GMT
This is my take as well. I ran your old Midas list through the new theme with know changes (assuming splatter boars stay 8 to keep both lights interchangeable) You get one more solo than you used to since slaughterhouser get 4 extra points. It did fine-ish. Obviously we don’t know all the details but unless they do some major changes to our casters I think farrow infantry will still sit this one out. Also I think I’m in the minority when after years of the dust settling I think blindwater is a deceptively restrictive theme. Playing anything but posse feels really bad since all the benefits are for them. Adding croaks or ambushers just takes away form the benefits. Here’s hoping that changes. (Like can posse just have innate snacking? It just makes sense) Yeah, I think my old list just drops Lanyssa and takes two Dhunian Archons (yet more improved delivery) as a pretty easy trade, and runs as-is, and I'll certainly be trying that out in a few weeks. I don't expect it to be a regular addition to my tournament roster though. It'll just sit there as a safeguard until the day stat skew lists start creeping into the meta that I can't play through with Sturm's control effects or Arkadius's hard armour cracking (boy oh boy does his potential anti-armour output go stratospheric post-Oblivion).
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Post by galiman on Jul 7, 2019 19:54:41 GMT
Yea the void archon and potentially what the hermit brings is nuts. So much so that we got into a big ol fb argument about it (I’m sure you saw that haha)
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Post by Azahul on Jul 7, 2019 22:47:30 GMT
Yea the void archon and potentially what the hermit brings is nuts. So much so that we got into a big ol fb argument about it (I’m sure you saw that haha) Probably not. I only touch Facebook once a week to organise games at the local game store. I don't think I'm in any groups beyond my local Warmachine group (and the New York Warmachine group as of this past week ).
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Post by custardboy on Jul 7, 2019 23:16:15 GMT
Well the Hermit was utterly broken in CID. We'll see what happens with him.
We really need a full focus on Thornfall to design it in such a way that it actually works.
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Post by Azahul on Jul 7, 2019 23:29:28 GMT
Eh, by his final iteration they'd got him to the point where he seemed reasonable. Master of Ruin is still entirely unnecessary on him, he was much more interesting when you took him to take advantage of his once-per-game Vision ability and built strategies around that rather than getting that ability as a perk when you take him as a -2 Armour debuff, but at least the debuff is reasonably hard to apply now and much more likely to catch allies in it than in the initial iteration. Probably too good a solo to just give every faction, but I wasn't too bothered by him at the end.
I think Lord Carver may be where it all went wrong for Thornfall, tragically. I love him, but pigs came off the starting line with two Warlocks in direct competition with each other as battlegroup focussed Warlocks. If we'd had him as an Infantry 'lock at the start there'd be a clearer direction I think on where pigs need to go. As it is, I often struggle to think of anything that would make me want to play Thornfall with our current roster of three Warbeast 'locks, one infantry 'lock that doesn't want to run Thornfall, and Midas.
And sadly Midas, our closest thing to a true pig infantry Warlock, just accentuates what they do well instead of covering their weaknesses and developing a clear playstyle with them. Pigs have above bar offensive stats but struggle to be delivered. Midas improves those offensive stats but doesn't help deliver them. And we have something like four grunt infantry units, and no internal synergies or clear ways to play them off one another. I've got this whole thesis about pigs fundamentally having no real identity beyond being super basic, march up the table and exchange shots and blows with the enemy and how that translates into making them hard to design for (hence why we're swimming in grunt combat units but lack any support at all), but I've probably rambled on long enough already.
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Post by galiman on Jul 8, 2019 0:28:20 GMT
I agree. I think minions as a faction struggles with identity simply because a lot of other rules interactions and synergy have already been done by other factions. You want hard hitting dudes that march up the table and trade blows you have menoth and circle. You want defensive blocks of dudes you have skorne, etc. I don’t think privateers press has solved how to effectively deliver single wound infantry outside of recursion. (And that’s not created equally either. Poor clockwork legion). I was very surprised brigands didn’t get a points reduction but we will see what happens in a few weeks. Then there’s also the very real problem (whether people want to admit it or not) that circle and skorne will benefit more from our infantry change than us. Hence why I’m hoping and praying to what lever twisted entity will hear me that the devs buff the casters.
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Post by Azahul on Jul 8, 2019 1:42:30 GMT
Putting my more upbeat positive hat on, I think the trenches really help thematically? Farrow tribes are meant to be annoyingly hard to dislodge from their territory. Trenches and Rise go a long way towards helping represent a determined Farrow tribe holding out by sheer pig-headedness. I may still think it was a missed opportunity to not give Commandos Smoke Bombs as a theme benefit (side-stepping the issue of Skorne and Circle running them better neatly), but I have to admit these benefits go a long way towards making me feel like pigs have the potential to play the way it seems the devs intended. Brigands always had Dig In, but it was always pretty hard to get use out of.
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