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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 22, 2019 11:56:09 GMT
So in the L&L keynote they talked about the new way that themes will go from August/September. The amount of free options you get will be flatly based on the size of the game, rather than points of a given model type.
Instead of the current system of 'Take X points of Y and get a free toaster', we will now have Requisition Points. You get 1, 2, or 3 for playing in theme at 25, 50 and 75 pts respectively, and these are used to get 1, 2 or 3 free options*. So, for example, a 75 point Armoured Corps list would always get three requisition points even if you didn't spend any points on MoW models.
*it was hinted that some options might cost more than one requisition point
The theme forces themselves were said to be mostly unchanged, which presumably means the Requisition options are analogous to the free options now, and that the other theme benefits haven't changed much.
I think one upshot of this is that Jaws of the Wolf will become the Kayazy theme instead of the Jack theme. You get just as many free points either way, and the theme benefits do nothing for jacks. Irusk2 Jaws, anyone?
It also means almost all of our themes can be run as jack themes, as they almost all have access to jack support (not you, Legion! Sorry!). Wolves of Winter Karchev could take Forge Seers, Koldun Lords and Greylords as support rather than just Forge Seers. Winter Guard Kommand could give you a bunch of free moves just by taking the free weapon crews.
I'm a big fan of these changes; they seem to allow for broader scope in listbuilding. It really opens up lists with a good jack-infantry balance, too, which can only help to diversify the range of lists. It'll be fun to see what changes come of it.
Interesting times ahead!
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Post by borderprince on Jun 22, 2019 12:07:11 GMT
As mentioned in another thread (link), PP have announced that theme forces will be changing to a set number of free options at a particular points sizes, seemingly without it mattering which models you include in your list. We haven't got all the details, but it does at least sound like you won't need, for example, 60 points of Doomreavers and Greylords to get 3 free models in Wolves of Winter. (No idea whether choosing mercs will interact with this).
Based on the limited information, any thoughts about possible nice lists?
I think the most obvious is building Wolves of Winter as a jack heavy list. With 2 Forgeseers and 2 Koldun Lords you can potentially hand out 4 Focus a turn (with up to three of those models taken as free choices). Casters I can see liking that:
Harkevich - the Focus lets his jacks do work while he is still able to cast Mobility for the speed boost. In effect his entire Battlegroup gets Boundless charge on Feat turn, but still have a reasonable amount of Focus to work with. The feat becomes more than just charge attacks + jamming with extra ARM. A possible damage buff from the Lords (albeit reducing the availability of Focus) is also nice for him. Still maybe too short a set of threat ranges, but he's definitely a better option than before.
Vlad1 - essentially the same as Harkevich, but with S&P instead of Mobility. Speed + Focus is a nice combination.
Strakhov1 - here I think it is about being able to alter his game plan a bit. Strakhov1 is usually going for the alpha and/or assassination and then tends to run out of steam a little. Extra Focus and a damage buff means that he has more of an attrition play available to him if required. Also - Strakhov1 + Ruin sounds like a match made in heaven for assassinations.
The other change seems likely to affect Jaws - taking infantry doesn't eat into your free stuff. So Irusk2 can have tough, no knockdown, no blast, Stealth Kayazy and free models. Add a marshalled Destroyer for Fire for Effect too.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jun 22, 2019 12:32:57 GMT
Cryptix, would you be able to combine this with the other thread on this topic in our forum?
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jun 22, 2019 12:39:10 GMT
As mentioned in another thread (link), PP have announced that theme forces will be changing to a set number of free options at a particular points sizes, seemingly without it mattering which models you include in your list. We haven't got all the details, but it does at least sound like you won't need, for example, 60 points of Doomreavers and Greylords to get 3 free models in Wolves of Winter. (No idea whether choosing mercs will interact with this). Based on the limited information, any thoughts about possible nice lists?
I think the most obvious is building Wolves of Winter as a jack heavy list. With 2 Forgeseers and 2 Koldun Lords you can potentially hand out 4 Focus a turn (with up to three of those models taken as free choices). Casters I can see liking that:
Harkevich - the Focus lets his jacks do work while he is still able to cast Mobility for the speed boost. In effect his entire Battlegroup gets Boundless charge on Feat turn, but still have a reasonable amount of Focus to work with. The feat becomes more than just charge attacks + jamming with extra ARM. A possible damage buff from the Lords (albeit reducing the availability of Focus) is also nice for him. Still maybe too short a set of threat ranges, but he's definitely a better option than before.
Vlad1 - essentially the same as Harkevich, but with S&P instead of Mobility. Speed + Focus is a nice combination.
Strakhov1 - here I think it is about being able to alter his game plan a bit. Strakhov1 is usually going for the alpha and/or assassination and then tends to run out of steam a little. Extra Focus and a damage buff means that he has more of an attrition play available to him if required. Also - Strakhov1 + Ruin sounds like a match made in heaven for assassinations.
The other change seems likely to affect Jaws - taking infantry doesn't eat into your free stuff. So Irusk2 can have tough, no knockdown, no blast, Stealth Kayazy and free models. Add a marshalled Destroyer for Fire for Effect too.
I’m currently on a Karchev kick, and my initial reactions were: “Damn, i can’t get 4 free models anymore.” Followed by... “Jaws sucks. Karchev in Wolves of Winter or Winterguard Kommand is going to be awesome.” Wolves is nice for double forge seers, double Koldun Lords, obviously. But I think losing Sorscha 0 is a high price to pay, because you go from threatening an alpha to definitely eating it in the face. A big problem with Karchev in WGK has been the fact that you’re either playing down points, or playing down jacks. This change seems good. And speaking of WGK, I think Assault Kommandos will finally see play! I’d reach for a unit in a Vlad 1 list now. Absolutely. The theme actually gets more flexible since you could play Vlad 1 Battlegroup heavy and now worry about missing out on your 3rd free model. Very good indeed.
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Post by jonnyboy on Jun 22, 2019 13:18:00 GMT
What I really like about this change is that it helps out a lot of the 'less fortunate' themes in all factions, while not doing too much for the themes/lists that are already doing great. Helps level things out.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Jun 22, 2019 14:00:03 GMT
So, Jaws only saving grace as a jack theme will be the combination of Forge Seers and Sorscha0?
I hope they will give the theme some sort of edge.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jun 22, 2019 14:58:52 GMT
So, Jaws only saving grace as a jack theme will be the combination of Forge Seers and Sorscha0? I hope they will give the theme some sort of edge. Yes. This. Otherwise why wouldn’t you just play Winterguard Kommand and take Sorscha 0 and the advance moves?
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jun 22, 2019 16:47:09 GMT
And speaking of WGK, I think Assault Kommandos will finally see play! This was my first thought when I read the news. Maybe some units like AKs will see some play at last.
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Post by auraco on Jun 22, 2019 16:57:19 GMT
So, Jaws only saving grace as a jack theme will be the combination of Forge Seers and Sorscha0? I hope they will give the theme some sort of edge. That's not much of a saving grace when compared to the advance moves in winterguard kommand, I mean with the adjunct's free upkeep and Sorscha0 you really don't need the forge seers, which are terrible models. Jaws is terrible and it doesn't seem that the theme force change is going to change much of that unless they do a major rework on it. It's a spd 4 jack theme that doesn't really help you with scenario, especially against armies that rely on advance deployment instead of on ambush...
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Post by borderprince on Jun 22, 2019 18:23:41 GMT
Jaws is terrible and it doesn't seem that the theme force change is going to change much of that unless they do a major rework on it. It's a spd 4 jack theme that doesn't really help you with scenario, especially against armies that rely on advance deployment instead of on ambush... Not saying all will be perfect, but:
(1) With the theme force change, Jaws won't be a "jack theme". It will get the same freebies as everyone else. It will be the stealthy infantry theme that includes slightly more options for controlling jacks than other themes;
(2) Didn't PP expressly say that they thought ambushers would be very valuable in one of the new scenarios? If so, Jaws might have a role as a theme to at least remove a scenario edge. If the scenario also starts to push the meta to include more ambushing models, then the Jaws theme benefit becomes more valuable too.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 22, 2019 18:59:46 GMT
The ambushers in scenario thing was mentioned with regard to the 2019 CID scenarios that have elements close to the board edge; King of the Hill and Bunkers. But it's worth noting that the zones in those scenarios are still centrally located, so they're relatively easy to reach by conventional moves too. Certainly nothing to make Ambush dominant.
I'm still not 100% convinced by the Assault Kommandos in Winter Guard, though; they're a shooting unit in a theme of better shooting units. I'd be perfectly happy to be wrong on that count, though.
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Post by jonnyboy on Jun 22, 2019 20:56:39 GMT
The ambushers in scenario thing was mentioned with regard to the 2019 CID scenarios that have elements close to the board edge; King of the Hill and Bunkers. But it's worth noting that the zones in those scenarios are still centrally located, so they're relatively easy to reach by conventional moves too. Certainly nothing to make Ambush dominant. I'm still not 100% convinced by the Assault Kommandos in Winter Guard, though; they're a shooting unit in a theme of better shooting units. I'd be perfectly happy to be wrong on that count, though. The order of activations is probably awkward, but the AK could cloud wall using mechanics or other WGI models. Maybe a min unit of AK and WGI for a nice cloud wall with counter charging jacks behind it.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 22, 2019 21:08:04 GMT
Doesn't work, unfortunately: a gas effect is not the same as a cloud effect, so all you would be doing is poisoning your own troops!
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Post by cplmustard on Jun 22, 2019 22:08:34 GMT
Something warms my fluffy heart about having karchev be strongest in the greylord theme. I already had plans to try him in wgk and this just makes that list better.
As far as jaws goes it's the behemoth + kayazy theme now, I kind of hope it's lumped in with legion of steel to make both themes a little less limited. Make it the general khador army theme, like Irusk's old mk2 themes. Differentiate it from Wolves a bit.
WGK might not benefit much from AKs not being completely worthless but widowmakers will be given new life imo, now that they don't compete so hard with WGRC they'll be a good option against immortals for example.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jun 23, 2019 4:35:59 GMT
Any chance Jaws and WGK getting folded into one theme?
Even though I love Forge Seers with Behemoth, nothing else about Jaws is really compelling.
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