gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jun 24, 2019 17:32:41 GMT
Interesting... while the post is clickbaity and the podcast (like most WMH podcasts) is about twice as long as it needs to be, a scrum is a good idea and tips on how to run one are good. I’m not sure whether or not this is something that I would be interested in running or attending, but it might be interesting to do something like alternate scrums and journeyman or narrative leagues. I like the idea of reconsidering prizes. I’ve been thinking a bit lately about prize structures for hobby events. It can get difficult to balance because winning stuff is nice, but if there are some players who are much more competitive than others, it can feel like at tournaments, the same people are taking everyone’s lunch money all the time. As for drunkmachine, I will take a pass on events like that. I think there is a weird and unhealthy obsession with alcohol (over?)consumption as part of the Warmachine community, which I suspect has to do with performative masculinity in the very dudebro culture of WMH. I mean, I like beer too, but sometimes the culture in WMH feels like 19 year olds for whom it just became legal and the novelty hasn’t worn off yet. Personally, I passed that phase about 10 years ago, so... I’d rather just play Warmachine and have a beer on one corner of the table that I am drinking at a reasonable pace than get completely sloshed and try playing against someone who is also completely sloshed. Yeah, if I had thought about it I'd have given specific times to listen to. Though I will say the drunkmachine part of the league adds a huge social aspect to the community, making it about more than competitive-ness, which again helps keep people invested. I think part of why it's getting talked about as much as it is right now is that we have a bunch of tournament players flying in from Canada to join us. I actually think it's going to be a ship show but... Really depends on what you are looking for. Knowing a lot of the folks in the scrum, drinking is a big thing for them. I'd say it's about half. "Dudebro" is a gross mis-estimation though in our case, though I definitely would see why you would think it. There are FAR too many social misfits in the league for the word "dudebro" to apply well here, at least my subjective definition.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jun 24, 2019 17:41:29 GMT
So, set up a scrum league, and play it. so, your advice on how to fix the game in a community where it's dead is to set up a league and play it. This was a waste of an hour and fifteen minutes. Humorous, and I loved to hear the passion about the game, but ultimately, this didn't have anything new or useful. sorry to be harsh. Everyone I know in my same boat has already tried the "league revival" strategy. I was hoping for more than that. I appreciate the thought though. I've seen leagues before, and scrums before, but they mention a few key differences here. I think the most important is the "more than just store locations and hours to play" and why that's so important to so many players. I'm actually playing in it weekly, but until I listened to this I didn't actually realize a lot of WHY it worked so much better than other leagues. But even if the scrum format isn't for you, the over-arching theme is still that of "build your community"... Rather than wait for Privateer Press to "fix it"
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Post by elladan52 on Jun 24, 2019 17:46:06 GMT
So, set up a scrum league, and play it. so, your advice on how to fix the game in a community where it's dead is to set up a league and play it. This was a waste of an hour and fifteen minutes. Humorous, and I loved to hear the passion about the game, but ultimately, this didn't have anything new or useful. sorry to be harsh. Everyone I know in my same boat has already tried the "league revival" strategy. I was hoping for more than that. I appreciate the thought though. I've seen leagues before, and scrums before, but they mention a few key differences here. I think the most important is the "more than just store locations and hours to play" and why that's so important to so many players. I'm actually playing in it weekly, but until I listened to this I didn't actually realize a lot of WHY it worked so much better than other leagues. But even if the scrum format isn't for you, the over-arching theme is still that of "build your community"... Rather than wait for Privateer Press to "fix it" The thing I admire Mark for is his willingness to host a bunch of games at his house. To me, that is by far the biggest boost over other areas: an individual that loves his community so much he is willing to open his home to them.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jun 24, 2019 17:49:25 GMT
I've seen leagues before, and scrums before, but they mention a few key differences here. I think the most important is the "more than just store locations and hours to play" and why that's so important to so many players. I'm actually playing in it weekly, but until I listened to this I didn't actually realize a lot of WHY it worked so much better than other leagues. But even if the scrum format isn't for you, the over-arching theme is still that of "build your community"... Rather than wait for Privateer Press to "fix it" The thing I admire Mark for is his willingness to host a bunch of games at his house. To me, that is by far the biggest boost over other areas: an individual that loves his community so much he is willing to open his home to them. It does a lot, though when it first started most of the games were taking place at an LGS that had happened to be open late. And a lot of folks in the area pool their "basement tables" for folks to play on. Plus LGSes still see a lot of our games. I'd say roughly half of the games are played at Mark's place, plus a crazy amount of pickup and casual games too. As a community builder, he's very "all in".
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Jun 24, 2019 17:49:30 GMT
So, set up a scrum league, and play it. so, your advice on how to fix the game in a community where it's dead is to set up a league and play it. This was a waste of an hour and fifteen minutes. Humorous, and I loved to hear the passion about the game, but ultimately, this didn't have anything new or useful. sorry to be harsh. Everyone I know in my same boat has already tried the "league revival" strategy. I was hoping for more than that. I appreciate the thought though. I've seen leagues before, and scrums before, but they mention a few key differences here. I think the most important is the "more than just store locations and hours to play" and why that's so important to so many players. I'm actually playing in it weekly, but until I listened to this I didn't actually realize a lot of WHY it worked so much better than other leagues. But even if the scrum format isn't for you, the over-arching theme is still that of "build your community"... Rather than wait for Privateer Press to "fix it" I thought social connecting and the inclusion of others was the point of the league. Isn't it just a vehicle to make friends and go to events and watch marvel movies together or have grilling days while painting? I don't think you guys are doing anything that is beyond what the norm is honestly. In fact, the social gathering, like everyone going out for dinner at the end of the league, or hitting some shitty fast food when the game play is done on game night, i mean, I guess i just assumed everyone else did these things by default. Sorry if i am being obtuse.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jun 24, 2019 18:58:03 GMT
I've seen leagues before, and scrums before, but they mention a few key differences here. I think the most important is the "more than just store locations and hours to play" and why that's so important to so many players. I'm actually playing in it weekly, but until I listened to this I didn't actually realize a lot of WHY it worked so much better than other leagues. But even if the scrum format isn't for you, the over-arching theme is still that of "build your community"... Rather than wait for Privateer Press to "fix it" I thought social connecting and the inclusion of others was the point of the league. Isn't it just a vehicle to make friends and go to events and watch marvel movies together or have grilling days while painting? I don't think you guys are doing anything that is beyond what the norm is honestly. In fact, the social gathering, like everyone going out for dinner at the end of the league, or hitting some shitty fast food when the game play is done on game night, i mean, I guess i just assumed everyone else did these things by default. Sorry if i am being obtuse. Maybe? It's hard to say what other people experience. All I can say is what the WMHD scene was like here before the scrum started and what it's like now, after. It's night and day. I'm convinced it's the format. The interest in Steamrollers has gone up a bit too, but the vast majority of the players still just do scrum games. Often the only games they ever get are scrum games. So I always go back to the format and the dedication to it that makes it successful.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jun 24, 2019 19:01:20 GMT
We are talking about forming a community around a game, a very specific game, and how to get more people playing said game.
Sometimes people just want other people to play with, and usually you go out of your way to accommodate for a game if you actually like the people you're playing against.
Developing friendships that go beyond the game is a bonus. But if all you want is to get more friends to hang out with and that will listen to you when you say Avengers End Game was a bit overrated, then you could probably do that with any activity, like knitting.
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Post by necromeat on Jun 24, 2019 20:02:35 GMT
Wow. This is an interesting thread.
Gumbafish- people would show up in force for the first week and then slowly stop coming if it they lost a game or two.
So do the people in your area not really like playing games unless they win?
Crimsyn- I’m not sure whether or not this is something that I would be interested in running or attending Why?
I mean, I like beer too, but sometimes the culture in WMH feels like 19 year olds for whom it just became legal and the novelty hasn’t worn off yet. Personally, I passed that phase about 10 years ago, so...
As I am very happy you passed that phase 10 years ago, its not nice to judge people on how they choose to have fun as long as it isn't physically hurting anyone, yes?
Shiver- Everyone I know in my same boat has already tried the "league revival" strategy. I was hoping for more than that. I appreciate the thought though.
The scrum isn't a league. You are just given an opponent every week for 4-6 weeks. And the results are that of a steamroller. Its a way for people to play a steamroller at a pace that works for many different walks of life. And it gives people ways to improve, meet new gamers and grow. But can I ask why people in your area would not like to do that? I am legitimately curious.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Jun 24, 2019 20:45:15 GMT
Crimsyn- I’m not sure whether or not this is something that I would be interested in running or attending Why? A few reasons. Mostly, I'm kind of burnt out on competitive, 75 point steamroller and this seems to be very much in that same sort of vein - basically, a regular steamroller only spread out over a few weeks. I also think that new players are pushed to 75 points too fast, and encouraging them to jump from battlebox into a 75 point scrum or steamroller within a matter of weeks is a little much. I'd like to hear their perspective on when to encourage a player to participate in their scrum, and how they can lower the barrier of entry for new players. I mean, if a new player ends up going to a game store and can't find an opponent because everyone is playing a pre-arranged 75 point game as part of their steamroller league, that can be a bad thing. Finally, I like being able to pick my opponents and dodge "that guy"; not being able to do so is one of the downsides of tournament play. As for running something like this, I'd rather run a journeyman league, narrative campaign, or painting day than something focused on competitive play. I mean, I like beer too, but sometimes the culture in WMH feels like 19 year olds for whom it just became legal and the novelty hasn’t worn off yet. Personally, I passed that phase about 10 years ago, so... As I am very happy you passed that phase 10 years ago, its not nice to judge people on how they choose to have fun as long as it isn't physically hurting anyone, yes? A lot of the stuff described in the podcast -- aggressive trash talk, binge-drinking, etc., doesn't really sound fun to me, and the whole drunkmachine thing doesn't really seem to have much to do with the point of the podcast, which is how to grow your meta via organized play -- more just someone talking about "hey, I throw good keggers for my warmachine friends" and "last year, Jimbo got so wasted that..." My broader concern is, I feel like WMH at times has kind of an aggressive dudebro culture with a lot of social dynamics that make it harder than it has to be for people to break in. I worry that this can limit growth of the game, especially among demographics who are underrepresented in WMH right now for no good reason.
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Post by galiman on Jun 24, 2019 21:23:11 GMT
I know physically I can’t drink like I used to. So I get that. However as a member of the scrum in question I want it to be know that it isn’t a bunch of drunken dudebros slobbering over little men all the time. We have multiple people from all walks of life. I’m fairly certain the drunkmachine talked about is starting in the early afternoon to allow people who have obligations or don’t want to feel like death come and hang out and get some games in. As for shivers comment on not meeting their expectations to grow a community. What else where you looking for? I believe the podcast was a discussion on why this is a very effective way to grow a community. I’m not sure there’s an easy cure all to bring players in but scrums can help. Also as far as siding “that guy” we have challenges at the beginning of the scrum to allow you start at a power level you’re comfortable with. Ive even denied a challenge from a far superior player because I didn’t feel like losing round one.
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Post by necromeat on Jun 24, 2019 21:33:06 GMT
Ah lovely. Well we do encourage competitive play. We generally do not have any i wanna dodge that person kinda games. Here and there but if it is brought to people’s attention we talk to the person in question as they may not even be aware they are doing something negative.
As for the dudebro mentality. I do have a manbun, beautiful, so i may not be able to say I am not one. But either way, the trash talking and such is all taken in stride and we try to make it as funny as possible. If anyone ever feels uncomfortable with that it is normally addressed and people will know that person is not into that. The community is quite respectful.
And the keg party thing. So as there are quite a few of us that like to get awesome on some alcohol, that is almost only at drunk machine. And even at drunk machine there is a dozen or more people who have a beer or two or just don’t really drink at all. We just highlight the drunken shinnanigrams because we find them entertaining.
New players can play in the scrum and play 75 points if they wish. Normally with new players we attempt to have them play smaller games and games with no clock or clock but pausing often to discuss the game and their options and such. Making it the best learning experience possible for the time they spend as many people in the community only really get to play one night a week.
So as the scrum is the platform in which the community grew, people come on scrum nights just to grab pickup games, talk about lists, socialize, play monpoc, travel to the holy burger king and even watch various 80’s action movies that i have on often enough. The scrum is awesome and at the center of it all. But the community is more than just a game a week.
I do hope this paints a clearer picture. I realize the podcast was a little all over the place, but hey, it was my first time being on one.
Also, since we are already on here talking, whats your current faction and lists, man?
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jun 24, 2019 22:28:05 GMT
My broader concern is, I feel like WMH at times has kind of an aggressive dudebro culture with a lot of social dynamics that make it harder than it has to be for people to break in. I worry that this can limit growth of the game, especially among demographics who are underrepresented in WMH right now for no good reason. This is where we start arguing that each and everyone of us has to work towards building the gaming community that we feel most comfortable with. If building a WM/H Community around Beer and Competitive play worked for the Podcast's meta, then that's great for them! Of course it's not going to be for everyone. For example, the Meta in San Diego is great, but some members of my really small meta do not speak English that well. Playing in the US would be a little bit intimidating for them. But I'm glad that we can throw dice every now and than in my house and we can do so in Spanish.
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Post by necromeat on Jun 24, 2019 22:32:28 GMT
Dude. That sounds awesome. I would try to learn spanish from them and just play while speaking spanish badly.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Jun 24, 2019 23:21:25 GMT
Ah lovely. Well we do encourage competitive play. We generally do not have any i wanna dodge that person kinda games. Here and there but if it is brought to people’s attention we talk to the person in question as they may not even be aware they are doing something negative. As for the dudebro mentality. I do have a manbun, beautiful, so i may not be able to say I am not one. But either way, the trash talking and such is all taken in stride and we try to make it as funny as possible. If anyone ever feels uncomfortable with that it is normally addressed and people will know that person is not into that. The community is quite respectful. And the keg party thing. So as there are quite a few of us that like to get awesome on some alcohol, that is almost only at drunk machine. And even at drunk machine there is a dozen or more people who have a beer or two or just don’t really drink at all. We just highlight the drunken shinnanigrams because we find them entertaining. New players can play in the scrum and play 75 points if they wish. Normally with new players we attempt to have them play smaller games and games with no clock or clock but pausing often to discuss the game and their options and such. Making it the best learning experience possible for the time they spend as many people in the community only really get to play one night a week. So as the scrum is the platform in which the community grew, people come on scrum nights just to grab pickup games, talk about lists, socialize, play monpoc, travel to the holy burger king and even watch various 80’s action movies that i have on often enough. The scrum is awesome and at the center of it all. But the community is more than just a game a week. I do hope this paints a clearer picture. I realize the podcast was a little all over the place, but hey, it was my first time being on one. Also, since we are already on here talking, whats your current faction and lists, man? I'm sorry for being overly negative at the start, the kind of clickbaity way in which this was posted kind of rubbed me the wrong way, in how instead of summarizing and explaining what they talked about in a paragraph or two and linking to it for more info, it was just a link to a 75 minute long podcast. The drinking and dudebro stuff was something that has been on my mind for a while; I didn't mean to derail the thread with it. Also, re-listening to it, I think you or one of the hosts mentioned making sure no one drives home from drunkmachine, and that is a huge important thing right there. Anyways, regardless, it sounds like one of the big things is just having someone who has the energy, motivation, space, etc., to do all the stuff you do to promote the game and build community, so kudos on that front. Your points about scrums being more accessible to people who only have time for one game a week is a good one; I know even as someone who doesn't have kids, going to a tournament can be kind of a stressful, all-day affair. I'm not sure I agree with promoting competitive play to newer players, or at least competitive play over other forms of play; I'm getting someone into the game right now and I'm taking the approach of not pushing any style of play and letting him figure out what he wants. Introduce the basics and let him figure out what he wants from the game rather than push any one particular way to play such as competitive, narrative, or just using the game as an excuse to show off cool painted models. Also, I have seen a couple communities end up focusing primarily on competitive play, but have eventually seen declines in turnout at events and valued members of the community dropping away because they feel that the game and/or the community has gotten to competitive and isn't for them anymore. How have you dealt with that? Have you considered doing something like alternating scrums with journeyman leagues or narrative leagues, or is there just not much interest in that sort of thing in your meta? Also, how do you deal with people who for whatever reason can't get a game in one particular week? Is that just considered a forfeit? Anyways, my main faction is Khador, but since almost all of my recent games have been introducting new players to the game, I've been playing mostly Cygnar lately (basically, the battlebox plus the Cygnar half of the CoI box plus a few bits and bobs to make a basic Storm Division list) and letting them use my Khador. I figure it's much easier to teach a new player when you know their models like the back of your hand and have your cards in front of you than if you have to keep looking up what their warcaster does.
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Post by galiman on Jun 25, 2019 1:43:23 GMT
I didn’t even realize it was remotely clickbait. But I think we are all excited in some capacity to see other people grow there communities as well. This wasn’t of course an overnight thing. As for people who can’t get a particular game in for a week yes it’s treated as a forfeit. The logistics of who loses to who can be a bit up in the air but that’s a case scenario. Usually one person just doesn’t have the time. This is actually why there’s isn’t a scrum in nov-dec anymore. Way too many concessions around the holidays. And as for the players who can’t take the competing nature anymore. Take it from as I’ve been that player very recently. As in a month ago. It did get frustrating and overwhelming for a while. So I took a break from the scrums. And realized it wasn’t about the game but the people. As it was stated our community is built on warmachine but it’s not about winning, it’s really about the friends you’ve met along the way 😂. But in that time off I talked with some of the newer players and saw their passion for the game and played causal games with them. This is actually why I’m excited for oblivion, even if it doesn’t turn out to be the greatest campaign, we will have rules to piss around a Saturday afternoon with a beer in hand.
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