|
Post by elricaltovilla on Jun 17, 2019 15:30:15 GMT
Pretty much what I was thinking. They made a deal with humans. The humans agreed to the terms in order to be free. Not their fault the new humans are getting all bent out of shape about it. I mean, they didn't make a deal with humans, they made a deal with a deity, for something that the deity did not own and therefore had no right to sell. Yes, they got cheated, but that don't give them the right to run around stealing stuff that ain't theirs. This is why humans should elect their gods democratically instead of allowing just anyone to assume the position through simple apotheosis. An elected deity would be subject to some form of regulation and oversight, which would prevent these types of situations from arising.
|
|
privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
|
Post by privvy on Jun 17, 2019 20:32:23 GMT
Menoth: The Old Witch, her arm clad in the purest shimmering leaves held aloft The Covenant from the bosom of the forest, signifying by divine providence that I, Menoth, was to carry The Covenant. THAT is why I am your God!
Feora interrupting: Listen, strange women lyin' in groves distributin' books is no basis for a system of government! Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical arboreal ceremony!
|
|
|
Post by elricaltovilla on Jun 17, 2019 23:22:54 GMT
Menoth: The Old Witch, her arm clad in the purest shimmering leaves held aloft The Covenant from the bosom of the forest, signifying by divine providence that I, Menoth, was to carry The Covenant. THAT is why I am your God! Feora interrupting: Listen, strange women lyin' in groves distributin' books is no basis for a system of government! Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical arboreal ceremony! Feora is a menite warcaster though... I think Zerkova is a better choice.
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 18, 2019 6:27:21 GMT
This is why humans should elect their gods democratically instead of allowing just anyone to assume the position through simple apotheosis. An elected deity would be subject to some form of regulation and oversight, which would prevent these types of situations from arising. So the pantheon would be like an anarcho-syndicalist commune, where everyone takes turns to act as a kind of divine officer for the week, and all the decisions of that deity have to be ratified in a special bi-weekly meeting?
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on Jun 18, 2019 9:30:38 GMT
This is why humans should elect their gods democratically instead of allowing just anyone to assume the position through simple apotheosis. An elected deity would be subject to some form of regulation and oversight, which would prevent these types of situations from arising. So the pantheon would be like an anarcho-syndicalist commune, where everyone takes turns to act as a kind of divine officer for the week, and all the decisions of that deity have to be ratified in a special bi-weekly meeting? And that is why people should get rid of all the gods and deny them their souls by placing them into vessels. Take back control from a self-appointed elite!
|
|
|
Post by charlzheimer on Jun 21, 2019 9:57:56 GMT
thamar wasn't diety at the time she made the deal with the infernals. she became a diety AFTER the deal with the infernals.
the infernals beeing lawfull is also rather, vague, as they seem to have no problem lying or not sharing information about the contracts they make.
at this point in time they appear to just need "consent" no matter HOW vague this consent appears to be.
edit: jokes about communism aside, the gods make the souls > no gods = no souls.
do you want to go the way of the elf?
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on Jun 21, 2019 10:40:24 GMT
thamar wasn't diety at the time she made the deal with the infernals. she became a diety AFTER the deal with the infernals.
Thamar was a deity before the deal with the Infernals. Per the IKRPG core book timeline, Thamar and Morrow are alive 1930-1894BR - they ascend to godhood at the end of their mortal lives. The first Orgoth Blackships arrive c.600BR, over 1000 years later. Thamar then makes a deal with the Infernals to deal with the Orgoth, leading to the gift of magic c.150BR. So definitely a deity before she deals with the Infernals.
That does seem to be how it works for Elves (to some extent - most Iosans are still born with souls, depsite most the Divine Court being dead/absent/cut off).
It is not clear that is how it works for all other species. Only Menoth made humans, yet a very large proportion of humanity no longer sends their souls to Menoth. But humans keep being born with souls. Whether that is because Menoth keeps manufacturing souls anyway, or because human souls aren't made by gods, isn't specified. Dhunian belief is that Menoth did not create mankind intentionally, which might be relevant in suggesting Menoth was just the initial creator of the species, not an ongoing creator of souls.
|
|
|
Post by charlzheimer on Jun 21, 2019 10:59:19 GMT
thamar wasn't diety at the time she made the deal with the infernals. she became a diety AFTER the deal with the infernals.
Thamar was a deity before the deal with the Infernals. Per the IKRPG core book timeline, Thamar and Morrow are alive 1930-1894BR - they ascend to godhood at the end of their mortal lives. The first Orgoth Blackships arrive c.600BR, over 1000 years later. Thamar then makes a deal with the Infernals to deal with the Orgoth, leading to the gift of magic c.150BR. So definitely a deity before she deals with the Infernals.
That does seem to be how it works for Elves (to some extent - most Iosans are still born with souls, depsite most the Divine Court being dead/absent/cut off).
It is not clear that is how it works for all other species. Only Menoth made humans, yet a very large proportion of humanity no longer sends their souls to Menoth. But humans keep being born with souls. Whether that is because Menoth keeps manufacturing souls anyway, or because human souls aren't made by gods, isn't specified. Dhunian belief is that Menoth did not create mankind intentionally, which might be relevant in suggesting Menoth was just the initial creator of the species, not an ongoing creator of souls.
we are not made by menoth due to design, but menoth still creates more human souls as he sees value in human souls for his own personal army in URcain. live in the city of man is very simular in live in the protectorate. menoth fully intends to create a army that allows him get the upper hand on the devourer wurm. he needs humans to grow and nurture those souls. wich in turn is why he tells the protectorate to be so strict so his investments return to him with garantee.
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on Jun 21, 2019 18:48:57 GMT
we are not made by menoth due to design, but menoth still creates more human souls as he sees value in human souls for his own personal army in URcain. Do you have a source for that which isn't based on the perspective of someone from within the fictional world? The start of the IKRPG book doesn't refer to any of the human deities creating human souls at all (similarly for Dhunia - she is the mother of the Dhunian races, but doesn't specifically create souls, just aids in their reincarnation).
The Elven gods are specifically identified as doing something unusual in relation to souls (pages 12-13), deliberately creating the Elves to provide the Divine Court with souls.
|
|
|
Post by elricaltovilla on Jun 21, 2019 19:08:57 GMT
thamar wasn't diety at the time she made the deal with the infernals. she became a diety AFTER the deal with the infernals. the infernals beeing lawfull is also rather, vague, as they seem to have no problem lying or not sharing information about the contracts they make. at this point in time they appear to just need "consent" no matter HOW vague this consent appears to be. edit: jokes about communism aside, the gods make the souls > no gods = no souls. do you want to go the way of the elf? I made the argument for democratically elected gods not communist ones. After that point it all just devolved into Monty Python jokes.
|
|
|
Post by Charistoph on Jun 21, 2019 19:18:30 GMT
edit: jokes about communism aside, the gods make the souls > no gods = no souls. do you want to go the way of the elf?
What about the Skorne? They know of no gods, have souls, and those souls apparently go to the Void after death. So, either they developed souls naturally or their creator got them going with self-perpetuation soul creation.
As for the Menoth bit, without actually killing Menoth or removing him from Urcaenn can we determine how tied he is to human soul creation. It could very well be that human soul creation is Dhunian, but Menoth planted the seed with her to get their race started, much like the Devourer Wyrm started the Trolls.
|
|
sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
|
Post by sorokin on Jun 21, 2019 19:50:44 GMT
Seacat addressed the issue of souls in the lorecast after the Archon devchat.
If I remember correctly, souls are not made by gods at all, in fact, gods are unable to create souls they can only receive them. New souls manifest on their own as long as a species is alive.
|
|
|
Post by greytemplar on Jun 21, 2019 20:35:16 GMT
Seacat addressed the issue of souls in the lorecast after the Archon devchat. If I remember correctly, souls are not made by gods at all, in fact, gods are unable to create souls they can only receive them. New souls manifest on their own as long as a species is alive. Sort of. Its explicitly known that Human souls spring out of nothing discernible. Other races it depends.
Elven souls seem unrelated to normal reproduction due to the Soulless crisis. Soulless only appeared after the Elven gods could no longer reincarnate the souls of dead elves to inhabit certain newborns. If Elven souls were spontaneously generated just like humans, there wouldn't be a soulless crisis. You'd simply have a fresh soul be created for the new child rather than a reincarnated one. The fact that the gods were necessary for certain elven bodies to get souls implies that they have some connection to the other ones too. Whatever mechanism creates new souls for Elves is obviously still working, but because certain elves are NOT born with fresh souls implies that the gods had a hand in the basic elven soul generation.
Dhunian souls have been observed to sink back into the earth itself, and reincarnation is also present here as a theme by the Dhunian races. If anything, reincarnation seems to be more common for Dhunian races than others. Though, its not the same as Elven reincarnation. They are created by Dhunia when a new child is born, and the soul is reabsorbed when the individual dies. So the soul is essentially absorbed and subsumed into Dhunia herself. Destroyed is probably not the correct word, but the soul no longer exists as its own entity. It's substance is taken in by a greater thing and it ceases to exist. That pool of substance is then used to create new souls for any new children. And if Dhunia wished, she could perhaps reform a specific soul. This is different from the Elven reincarnation where the exact same soul is put into a new body, while Dhunian souls are treated like wet clay that is returned to a greater lump of clay.
The Skorne also seem to appear out of nowhere. But the new fluff behind the Void Archon's could change that. As I mentioned in the other threat about potential Dhunian and Cyriss Archons, the Void Archon's actually are implying that there might be a greater being in the Void afterall. One that keeps itself hidden from the Skorne, but for some reason recent events are forcing it to tip its hand and effect events on Caen directly. It could be the god which created the Skorne, but desires no worship. It simply uses its power to create Skorne souls, which it uses as a food source after the skorne finish their lifecycle. Equally possible, this eldritch horror doesn't create the skorne souls, they just happen naturally as a result of a sentient being being conceived like human souls do. But it did create the Skorne race initially, and it simply uses them as cattle. Their souls eventually come into the void, where it feasts on their torment and suffering like sweat meat and fine wine.
|
|
|
Post by Aegis on Jun 22, 2019 8:47:33 GMT
Actually, Ios souls have a reincarnation system, that was made work by elven gods. No elven gods = Reincarnation system doesn't work anymore = Babies are born without soul.
Dhunian races also have reincarnation, so a Dhunian Troll soul doesn't go to Urcaen (or at least doesn't remain there), but incarnates in a new troll.
The Wurm takes souls with him into his hunting packs and changes them into predators to help him in his battle against Menoth.
Menoth, Morrow and Thamar give shelter to their faithfuls souls into their citadels in Urcaen, and use them as as defenders against the Wurm raids.
Cyrissists, umbelivers and souls damaged and weakned by being used to fuel necromancy just end up into the wilds of Urcaen and almost always fall prey to the Wurm predators.
Skorne souls go to the Abyss. It was tought that they were destroyed there, but Zaal came back so it's still unclear.
Souls bartered to Infernals get minted into coins to be used as currency into Infernals world.
Likely (also from what Doug said), souls generate by themselves when a new creature is born, unless the new creature is intended to be the receptacle for a reincarnated soul (in that case it just receive the soul of a died member of the race).
That would also explain why some elves are still born with souls and how the troll race can increase in numbers instead of having a fixed number of individuals, and why Humans just continue to pop new souls from nothing.
Soul-less born in Ios are likely bodies intended to host a reincarnated soul that doesn't arrive since Elven Gods don't help the transition, while normal Ios still born are child that would have a "newly created" soul anyway. Nyss don't have Soul-less since Nyssor is still there.
|
|
|
Post by elricaltovilla on Jun 22, 2019 11:47:06 GMT
With regards to the Dhunian Souls, isn't Banelord Tartarus a former trollkin? He used to wield Rathrok right?
|
|