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Post by auraco on Jun 15, 2019 23:13:53 GMT
So I've been having a lot of success with my Vlad2 Wolves list, I'm not done with Vlad2 Wolves yet, it's probably the strongest khador list at the moment if dropped in anything else than a gunline, but I know how the list work and I want to try something else.
Other than him I'm looking at Sorscha1, Old Witch2 and Zerkova1 and want to know which of the three you guys think works best.
The big difference between these three casters and Vlad2 is that they don't need the stuff in the list to be faction to work well, so Fenris can get out of the list, I also don't feel like I'm missing out much (hand of fate) if I only go for a min unit of outriders instead of the full unit, so I have some point to work with here. This leaves an interesting spot open for two new toys, the relatively new Alexia2 and the yet to be released Void Archon that was added to the theme during the last week of the Oblivion CID. So the base of the list would be something like this: Caster Jack Jack Adjunct Koldun lord Koldun lord Alexia2 Void Archon Doom reavers +CA Doom reavers +CA Doom reavers Doom reavers Min Outriders Ternions
It works out surprisingly well to go to exactly 60 pts of reavers and greylord stuff to get 3 free cards and still have both Alexia2 and the Void archon. The battlegroup would be minimum battlegroup so Juggy/Destroyer for Old Witch2, or double Destoyer for Sorscha1 and Zerkova1. I like how the Void Archon brings a damage buff to the list that doesn't rely on spell, and how all the casters have tools that help him live, which seems was his problem during the CID.
So what do you guys think? Witch caster would be best here? Do you like the bones of the list? Would you change anything here?
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Post by borderprince on Jun 16, 2019 4:18:09 GMT
Witch caster would be best here? Do you like the bones of the list? I think you might be revealing your preference with the spelling mistake!
Couple of thoughts:
(1) Void Archon - the Dark Shroud ability is quite short-ranged. In the few games I've tried it with, I've got one turn of good usage out of it, then usually a dead Archon from retaliation. I don't think that's a major problem, provided you're aware of it;
(2) OW2 is great, but I think she generally shines with more than a minimum BG. I'm just not convinced you're getting the most out of her abilities in this kind of list. But it might be OK to not be exploiting all her kit if the parts she does provide get you what you want.
(3) I've been really struggling to get a Sorscha1 list I like in Wolves with the Void Archon and new Alexia2. The problem is the BG. A single Destroyer is nice for spot removal. The second I found to have diminishing returns. Before the changes, I've liked her with a colossal and/or one or two more premium jacks, but you can't afford that with the solos. I do wonder whether something like Ruin + Marauder might be better, for some serious anti-ARM if you need it. You've got some mobile sprays for spot-removal, so it might be OK?
I'm probably biased because I'd like more data to see how Sorscha1 is working, so I'd say her.
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Post by auraco on Jun 16, 2019 17:01:40 GMT
Totally unintentional typo, but my first reflex was indeed to try the list with Old Witch2
How did the void archon perform in the games you've tried him? I didn't play any game during the oblivion CID, I like a lot of the kit of the void archon, but I can also see why it's a fragile model. Not sure how that translate to the table without experience tho
How do you usually run OW2 battlegroup wise, last couple of times I played her was in armored corps with min battlegroup, but running her in armored corps is super different from running her in wolves, haven't tried her in wolves yet.
For Sorscha1 it could be destroyer and decimator for the battlegroup, wolves is probably the best theme to get some use out of it's gun, with ice cage and brittle frost to help out with it's gun. Not entirely convinced since it's a decimator. Ruin + Maraudeur could also be good, Ruin needs no explanation and the Void archon and Alexia2 can be used for spot removal.
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Post by borderprince on Jun 17, 2019 3:32:56 GMT
How did the void archon perform in the games you've tried him? I didn't play any game during the oblivion CID, I like a lot of the kit of the void archon, but I can also see why it's a fragile model. Not sure how that translate to the table without experience tho Only a few games, but:
Important lesson number one - the Dark Shroud range is low. If you're relying on the Void Archon to buff the damage of a Doom Reaver in melee, don't forget Berserk. Killing your own Void Archon is embarrassing.
Not that I would ever do that.
Aside from failings that could have been avoided by thinking and playing better, the real issue for survivability for me was opposing counter-charges. You move the Archon in to help take down armor and it does the job. But there's then a 50mm+ space where the enemy model used to be, and the Void Archon isn't tough enough to survive counter-charges from dedicated melee models (and Void Walk doesn't help it if another of your models actually takes out the target). That happened once, but I spotted it the second time and used Soul Phase to save it.
I think the lesson from that was to exploit the hit and run nature of the Archon more. Is isn't Ragman, with a single real purpose. Using Dark Shroud to buff other models' attacks (rather than simply its own) probably needs to be limited to the late game or taking down a game-changing model (removing a colossal, that kind of thing). Powering it up by collecting some souls first is also a good idea. Being able to trigger Incorporeal does make a difference (unless you're hit by something like your own Doomreaver, but that would never happen, right?).
My main OW2 experience is in Jaws, so the BG is rather different. But with Boundless Charge and her other abilities, I do think going with only two jacks is limiting her potential.
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Post by skathrex on Jun 26, 2019 15:17:50 GMT
So first of: Fenris with Vlad2 you crazy?
Secondly all 3 of these can play WoW pretty well actually, with different strength in certain matchups but I think at least Z1 and Ow2 want 2 units of Ternions to help with hit fixing. I would try to encorporate a 3 marauder BG with OW2 if possible or take at least 1 destroyer.
Z1 strength is her scenario game and delivery. Many games you can actually just win by delivering as many Reavers as possible and completely shutting your opponent out of scenario if hes not careful enough. Hexblast is also very good with reavers as it helps with armor and hit fixing againt certain buffs.
OW2 in general has a better delivery than Z1 has imo, but besides that her support is limited. Curse is nice for dmg and Blind nice for hard targets with high deff but against high Deff targets like Rocketmen or Ravagers with surefoot her reavers are in serious trouble. Another problem is her survivability. WoW has not much you can screen her with and be safe. Probably personal bias but I don't like her anymore, there isn't enough shooting around that cares about her defense tech atm.
S1 is imo probably the second best WoW caster simply because she also hit fixes. A bit more clunky than Vlad2 does but she also has great controll and assasination to go with it.
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Post by auraco on Jun 26, 2019 17:14:16 GMT
So first of: Fenris with Vlad2 you crazy? Secondly all 3 of these can play WoW pretty well actually, with different strength in certain matchups but I think at least Z1 and Ow2 want 2 units of Ternions to help with hit fixing. I would try to encorporate a 3 marauder BG with OW2 if possible or take at least 1 destroyer. Z1 strength is her scenario game and delivery. Many games you can actually just win by delivering as many Reavers as possible and completely shutting your opponent out of scenario if hes not careful enough. Hexblast is also very good with reavers as it helps with armor and hit fixing againt certain buffs. OW2 in general has a better delivery than Z1 has imo, but besides that her support is limited. Curse is nice for dmg and Blind nice for hard targets with high deff but against high Deff targets like Rocketmen or Ravagers with surefoot her reavers are in serious trouble. Another problem is her survivability. WoW has not much you can screen her with and be safe. Probably personal bias but I don't like her anymore, there isn't enough shooting around that cares about her defense tech atm. S1 is imo probably the second best WoW caster simply because she also hit fixes. A bit more clunky than Vlad2 does but she also has great controll and assasination to go with it. I might be crazy, not exactly sure why about Fenris though... I've liked him so far with Vlad2, but as I said, I might actually be crazy. Against Iona Zerkova1 does seem better than OW2, Hex blast being key here. It's been a couple of month since I've played OW2 but Ive enjoyed her support so far, the no free strike and can move through part of curse of shadow always end up surprising me with how useful it is, granted it's not the most useful against Tharn though. How do you find Sorscha's kit to help deliver the reavers, fog of war gives a bit of shooting protection and frozen enemy models can't make attack, or at least have to shake off, is it enough to help deliver the reavers?
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Post by skathrex on Jun 27, 2019 9:49:11 GMT
Question of delivery is always against what? Against tridents only OW2 really helps and even there a good ret player can minimize the effect of windstorm imo.
Against SFR I think Sorschas Fog of War helps enough Reavers to make it into combat. Same goes for Bloodpack or Bloottrackers. Against any kind of serious shooting like WGK, CGI etc. I don't think it does enough, so it won't help against Cygnar and CG for example but I would not want to play WoW there anyway, thats one of the reasons I don't like OW2. Even with her in WoW you still need a second list to cover shooting.
Thats the reason I think S1 does pretty well. She controls a lot of the infantry based lists and usually has enough power to not care about delivering Reavers into the matchups she wants.
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Post by auraco on Jun 27, 2019 11:11:52 GMT
Question of delivery is always against what? Against tridents only OW2 really helps and even there a good ret player can minimize the effect of windstorm imo. Against SFR I think Sorschas Fog of War helps enough Reavers to make it into combat. Same goes for Bloodpack or Bloottrackers. Against any kind of serious shooting like WGK, CGI etc. I don't think it does enough, so it won't help against Cygnar and CG for example but I would not want to play WoW there anyway, thats one of the reasons I don't like OW2. Even with her in WoW you still need a second list to cover shooting. Thats the reason I think S1 does pretty well. She controls a lot of the infantry based lists and usually has enough power to not care about delivering Reavers into the matchups she wants. I'm kind of confused by how Zerkova1 and Sorscha1 don't help against trident... As far as I know they don't have a way to ignore clouds or concealment. I also know that wolves does terrible against shooting, even with the initial Vlad2 list, it's not a list that I would want to play against a lot of guns, the list to play against a dedicated gunline is alway going to be my other list, I just want to find an alternative to playing Vlad2 for a while, but since it's an other wolves list it's not going to be a gunline drop either. What I wanted to know was mostly if the new toys like Alexia2 and the void archon get good mileage out of the three potential alternative to Vlad2, since they all do more for the new toys than Vlad2 himself.
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Post by jonnyboy on Jun 27, 2019 11:47:03 GMT
I've only played S1 WoW, but from what i experience, i love the list. People are often very hesitant knowing your caster, alexia, and destroyer all have a 18+ non linear threat range. They are also aware of sorscha's ability to freeze massive amounts of the table (that alone lets you deliver doomiea).
The biggest weakness for the list that i've found are sprays. The list also doesnt focus heavily on 'delivering' doomies, but instead clogs the field with doomies. You opponent either spends time killing them and not contesting or putting their expensive pieces in poor spots to contest, letting your doomies do work. I think i've only won one game with attrition, the rest have all been scenario.
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Post by skathrex on Jun 27, 2019 14:08:46 GMT
I'm kind of confused by how Zerkova1 and Sorscha1 don't help against trident... As far as I know they don't have a way to ignore clouds or concealment. I also know that wolves does terrible against shooting, even with the initial Vlad2 list, it's not a list that I would want to play against a lot of guns, the list to play against a dedicated gunline is alway going to be my other list, I just want to find an alternative to playing Vlad2 for a while, but since it's an other wolves list it's not going to be a gunline drop either. What I wanted to know was mostly if the new toys like Alexia2 and the void archon get good mileage out of the three potential alternative to Vlad2, since they all do more for the new toys than Vlad2 himself. I meant in a meaningful way. With the new objective 1 Trident can always have Eyless sight and its also easy for tridents to stay on the flanks and work around clouds but you have a point that she is not entirely helpless. S1 might work, I didn't try it but the amount of shoots with boosts still scares me. Not all reavers will be in 12" and they have rat 8 in 5" plus boosts and certain feats. All in all might be dangerous but could work Also if you play Wolves with at least 3 Units of Reavers and no Alexia2 wtf are you doing. Void Archon I am not sure about because I see no value in him.
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Post by auraco on Jun 27, 2019 14:39:12 GMT
Rat 8 against reavers in concealment (assuming no objective bonus here, it clearly won't alway be on, needing to stay within 4'' of the objective does have it's limitations) means attack will miss. Then again with all the double triden list I see these days, I'm not expecting to drop wolves of winter into ret, as I said, it's not a good list to drop into guns, and most ret army have a lot of shooting. I mean I've played Vlad2 wolves into ret and managed to win, but the list didn't have two tridents, against a list with two tridents wolves is pretty much out of the question.
Alexia2 is good, but I don't see her as auto include with Vlad2 where I think fenris has a place (for which I'm apparently crazy), with the other casters to help her I can see her place and will be trying her.
My interest for the void archon is the damage buff that doesn't rely on an offensive spell and the no healing aura, with a list that has 4 units of reavers there are more than plenty enough of souls for him and Alexia2 in the same list without them stepping on each other's toes
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Post by skathrex on Jun 27, 2019 15:51:43 GMT
Alexia2 is very very strong. I would give her a try. She is very good.
I think most WoW lists have enough dmg that they dont need the arm debuff and you got a natural no healing auto but its surely worth trying.
Regarding souls you are right. It shouldn't be a problem even with 2 soul takers.
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Post by jdeckert on Jun 27, 2019 18:20:24 GMT
I think most WoW lists have enough dmg that they dont need the arm debuff There's no kill like overkill, though Also, I like damage buffs with reavers. It can be the difference between having to send 4 to kill a target and sending 3, letting that 4th one go kill that pesky solo or berserk into a few enemy troops. Or resolve order of activation problems.
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Post by michael on Jun 28, 2019 3:32:43 GMT
There are far too many situations in which Doom Reavers need those ARM debuffs to have a chance. Death Shroud, Agonizer, the plentiful ARM buffs out there; all of that can make even charging P+S 12 weapon masters sad. I’m gonna day it again: this community crapped the bed when it went all in on being “balanced” by swapping Bonds of Woe over to the Ternion and leaving the Koldun Lord as the sole source of Brittle Frost. One chance for this and you blew it.
Anyway, I am just here to report that I recently played several games with Old Witch 1 in Wolves of Winter. I took her because I probably haven’t used her since shortly after the edition change in 2016.
Old Witch 1 is still balls this edition. Gallows is still entirely unreliable. The whole package continues not to work well.
Something something etc.
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Post by skathrex on Jun 28, 2019 8:13:55 GMT
I think most WoW lists have enough dmg that they dont need the arm debuff There's no kill like overkill, though Also, I like damage buffs with reavers. It can be the difference between having to send 4 to kill a target and sending 3, letting that 4th one go kill that pesky solo or berserk into a few enemy troops. Or resolve order of activation problems. Actually a good argument with the small problem that you might need to send in fewer reavers, but for the points you can get around 5 additional reavers. michael you realise we are one of the few factions that has a range arm debuff on a stick? Which happens also to be fairly relaible. Targets that need their arm debuffed by Koldun lords often don't have to high armor. This way we also have recursion. Also I ran pre buff WoW and stood a fair chance against stuff like Slayerspam and actually good chance against Rasheth WoD. I don't know what you need more dmg for. And OW1 needs the right matchups. She craps all over Tharn for example.
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