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Post by sand20go on May 23, 2019 23:03:29 GMT
The only reason for blackdragons is that you built them and did not magnitize their sheilds. INteresting question - could you just CALL them vanillafangs? I guess up to the TO ;-)
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Post by MrHaystacks on May 24, 2019 9:31:45 GMT
I would love to see Black Dragons gain +2Def & +2Arm while B2B as these are meant to be the last survivors of their units. The luckiest, the hardest, the most stoic MoFo's armed with shields and spears in a world of giant wolves and steam powered wrecking balls.
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Post by auraco on May 24, 2019 13:01:55 GMT
I would love to see Black Dragons gain +2Def & +2Arm while B2B as these are meant to be the last survivors of their units. The luckiest, the hardest, the most stoic MoFo's armed with shields and spears in a world of giant wolves and steam powered wrecking balls. Giving them more defensive difference between just their mini feat would help differentiate between the units and would be interesting. At the moment the unit are super similar, most of the difference come from their CA, but it boils down to Iron Zeal vs Defensive formation and relentless charge, thing is for cheaper defensive formation and relentless charge are just way better. Precision strike is not super releveant since you're playing them in legion of steel, so you will have kovniks in the army anyway, even practice maneuvre isn't that releveant since you'll also have markov on the table.
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Post by hocestbellum on May 24, 2019 13:23:48 GMT
Thinking about it, the reason they lack distinction is actually because of the Iron Fang Kovnik. If he didn't give the vanilla IFP Precision Strike there would be a genuine reason to take the Black Dragons.
If he granted something like Unyielding, which is good for both units, perhaps we'd see the Black Dragons some more. Both units could use it, but it plays slightly more into the BD ARM stacking.
Of course, the Black Dragons would still be stuck with the joke that is Sidestep, so it's not 100% the Kovnik's fault
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Post by borderprince on May 24, 2019 14:01:29 GMT
...even practice maneuvre isn't that releveant since you'll also have markov on the table. I wouldn't agree entirely with that. Markov can't be everywhere at once, and being able to wander around with Black Dragons and leave Markov with the rest of the list can be handy if you need to split forces for scenario or the like.
I think the idea with BDs was that they are sufficiently veteran that they are more or less capable of operating entirely independently. That can be situationally useful for practiced manoeuveres because there can only ever be one Markov. But it doesn't work for the Kovnik buffs because there are so few other choices for solos (especially free solos) in Legion of Steel that you will almost always have a Kovnik nearby.
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Post by MrHaystacks on May 24, 2019 14:07:41 GMT
Thinking about it, the reason they lack distinction is actually because of the Iron Fang Kovnik. If he didn't give the vanilla IFP Precision Strike there would be a genuine reason to take the Black Dragons. If he granted something like Unyielding, which is good for both units, perhaps we'd see the Black Dragons some more. Both units could use it, but it plays slightly more into the BD ARM stacking. Of course, the Black Dragons would still be stuck with the joke that is Sidestep, so it's not 100% the Kovnik's fault I complete agree with changing the Kovnic, although I would prefer something other than Unyielding due to Kozlovs feat. If they had Wall of Iron + Defensive Line the side step would allow them charge in, then step in further B2B. (FYI this is also my solution to help fix AK's)
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Post by auraco on May 24, 2019 14:26:35 GMT
I think the distinction made sense before the themes, you could take a unit of black dragon and have them be self sufficient, or take the cheaper regular pikemen and the solos to buff them but it would end up more expansive. The thing is that theme changed all that since you'll be taking the support anyway, countercharging kovniks are pretty good.
Not sure exactly how releveant unyeilding would be on pikemen, their defensive stats are already low enough that I'm not sure a melee only +2 armore would be all that releveant.
Legion of steel hasn't had any cid and only one new model since the theme dropped, and it shows, simple point reduction and less limited merc choice would actually go a long way to help them, things like the iron fang kovnik don't nearly need a total rework nearly as much as the koldun lord needed it during the Wolves cid.
I would still like to see more difference between the regular pikemen and the black dragon, something like defensive line for the black dragon would be interesting, the def difference with the regular pikemen would help give an incentive to play them, because at the moment the regular pikemen ability to navigate terrain thanks to tactic:Relentless charge just seems way too good to pass on, and they are cheaper than the black dragon.
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Post by michael on May 24, 2019 15:00:56 GMT
I’m telling you guys: bring back their MK II iteration (DEF 13 and the ability to have 3 full IFP+CA units + Uhlans + solos in the theme) and we’d be sitting pretty.
I was never happy with Sofya, and I don’t care one way or another about the Iron Fang Kovnik granting Precision Strike (if the BDIFP were cheaper, so the total cost of IFP + IF Kovnik was greater), but...uh... Something?
Also fix those poor Great Bears. When was the last time you saw Great Bears?
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Post by hocestbellum on May 24, 2019 15:26:31 GMT
I’m telling you guys: bring back their MK II iteration (DEF 13 and the ability to have 3 full IFP+CA units + Uhlans + solos in the theme) and we’d be sitting pretty. I was never happy with Sofya, and I don’t care one way or another about the Iron Fang Kovnik granting Precision Strike ( if the BDIFP were cheaper, so the total cost of IFP + IF Kovnik was greater), but...uh... Something? Also fix those poor Great Bears. When was the last time you saw Great Bears? The last time I saw Great Bears was the last time I saw Legion played. They're not uncommon in Legion, but since that theme is uncommon itself the GBs don't get much air time. I was thinking about the DEF13 thing earlier. I don't know if it was similar for other factions, but they took an axe to Khador's DEF. Iron Fangs of all flavours lost a DEF, Kayazy lost a DEF, all MoW lost a DEF, WGI lost their DEF-boosting order, and Khador lost its DEF boosting spell. If we still had the old Iron Flesh, maybe the nuke would make sense. But it honestly feels like they compensated for Iron Flesh, then removed the spell and forgot to undo the original adjustment.
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Post by michael on May 24, 2019 15:41:09 GMT
If we still had the old Iron Flesh, maybe the nuke would make sense. But it honestly feels like they compensated for Iron Flesh, then removed the spell and forgot to undo the original adjustment.
That was kind of my feeling too. DEF 16 IFP was nuts; I grant that. The same goes for DEF 19 Kayazy.
I get that the idea was to bring DEF back into mathematically-sensible regions across the board. DEF was kind of getting out of hand in MK II. DEF was absolute king.
But, at the same time, MK III is probably the most lethal-to-single-wound-infantry edition we've had, or at least it feels like it to me. The long and short is that DEF loss hurt, because now things are just that tiny bit more likely to hit and kill.
Anyway, something, etc.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on May 25, 2019 13:25:17 GMT
#MakeGreatBearsGreatAgain
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Post by hocestbellum on May 25, 2019 13:55:32 GMT
We're going to build a Wall of Steel! And Cygnar's going to pay for it!
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Post by welshhoppo on May 25, 2019 17:37:26 GMT
The issue is that you have two very similar units. Similar to the situation in Menoth with Cinerators and Bastions. You have to make them different enough to want to have to make the choice. As opposed to now where it's a case of you pick IFP because you're already taking all the solos for free that give you black dragon benefits.
Maybe change Black Dragons into a defensive unit. Native tough and set defence. Lower the pow of their spears by one. Give them sturdy so they can't be pushed.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on May 25, 2019 21:50:35 GMT
I feel like the Minifeat of the Cinerators would be great on one of the infantry units.
Also I doubt PP would be willing to add Iron Fang shooting models for fluff reasons. Iron Fangs are old fashioned knights using old fashioned weapons in an old fashioned fighting style. The hight of innovation for them was to add blasting heads to their pikes and lances because somebody told them regular pikes are ineffective against 5 ton steel monsters.
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Post by Havock on May 25, 2019 22:13:02 GMT
IFP are priced as elite melee units yet are more high-midline when it comes to offense only.
Their defenses can be described as "dead men walking".
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