mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on May 31, 2019 1:11:50 GMT
So as far as PP supporting smaller point games... what if they did 50 point team tournaments? where you and another person each get a 50 point list and you enter as a tournament pair. You would each deploy your models on the same table, and use the rules found in the No Quarter Prime for those bigger games. That way if you're new, you could pair with a buddy, or a veteran, and only need 50 point entry? Maybe make it so there are no themes for that format as well so newbies could literally bring what they have / want? some friends and I did something like you are talking about but it was 35 points. It was pretty entertaining on the whole, but when you stack control or time walk feats it can get old. All of the lower point games are frustrating for me as a trollblood player, we require 9-12 points of krielstone just to play as designed.
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Post by elladan52 on May 31, 2019 7:36:48 GMT
So as far as PP supporting smaller point games... what if they did 50 point team tournaments? where you and another person each get a 50 point list and you enter as a tournament pair. You would each deploy your models on the same table, and use the rules found in the No Quarter Prime for those bigger games. That way if you're new, you could pair with a buddy, or a veteran, and only need 50 point entry? Maybe make it so there are no themes for that format as well so newbies could literally bring what they have / want? some friends and I did something like you are talking about but it was 35 points. It was pretty entertaining on the whole, but when you stack control or time walk feats it can get old. All of the lower point games are frustrating for me as a trollblood player, we require 9-12 points of krielstone just to play as designed. Give 10 pts a try, do and don't bring the krielstone and see how it feels. Arguments about how a faction or even how the game is designed are ultimately immaterial if it's fun anyway.
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Post by netdragon on May 31, 2019 8:16:13 GMT
So as far as PP supporting smaller point games... what if they did 50 point team tournaments? where you and another person each get a 50 point list and you enter as a tournament pair. You would each deploy your models on the same table, and use the rules found in the No Quarter Prime for those bigger games. That way if you're new, you could pair with a buddy, or a veteran, and only need 50 point entry? Maybe make it so there are no themes for that format as well so newbies could literally bring what they have / want?
the problem is not the promotion, is the design. Haley2 in small point armies is an absolute beast, for example, and I'm pretty sure that huge models like the derp turtle can deal by itself with a "balanced" army of equivalent point total.
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Post by netdragon on May 31, 2019 8:18:23 GMT
TBH, I do think that junior casters (solos with focus/fury manipulation)could be great commander units to design a small point army format.
No huge bases, no characters, junior as army commander, no themes, 25 - 35 pts.
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Post by elladan52 on May 31, 2019 8:35:47 GMT
Y'all are missing it.
10-20 pts, no restrictions. Only change to play is 8 terrain pieces in the center of the board and the 12" (from all sides) instant death killbox.
Part of the fun is trying to break it, especially with casters that aren't played often at the 75 pts level. I find that is the main appeal for veterans, which is 100% fine.
Because the most unfun experience possible (dice, bad matchup, whatever) lasts less than 30 minutes with barely a minute's worth of setup, and a new game can be played. You all are thinking of fun in terms of 75 pts, where balance is very important and an unfunny match can be your whole game night experience, which can often be your whole weeks worth of warmachine.
That's the beauty of LPGs - no matter how bad it gets, it's over in minutes and you can immediately play a new one and overwrite that bad experience.
Don't take my word for it fellas, try it out at your next casual game night and see for yourself.
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Post by jisidro on May 31, 2019 8:58:02 GMT
Noone believes casters are balanced, at 10-20pts it is probably even worse.
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Post by elladan52 on May 31, 2019 9:22:57 GMT
Noone believes casters are balanced, at 10-20pts it is probably even worse. "Probably" is the operative word here. Try it out! The balance shifts are actually super interesting for a couple of reasons, one of which is a lack of targets on both sides of the board. The LoTF, for example, is much less intimidating when it's pretty much just him you have to deal with and he will struggle to get corpses from you because you got no infantry. And I have to say, good terrain layout is key. Lots of LoS and movement blocking, otherwise it does become very one-sided very quickly. One more thing locally we will be testing soon: adding flags (scoreable by all) and objectives. With the 2019 objectives, you can actually get some tools you wouldn't always be able to afford. We have even done some David and Goliath style games with a Judicator on the board. Lots of fun, especially when the killbox keeps the caster controlling it honest and the judi has to work around terrain. Also, this is not meant, at least initially, to be competitive in the traditional sense. It's very likely that a tournament would require some sort of sideboard/evolving list format, but we aren't there yet. This is meant to be a fun, valid alternative to 75 pts that new players could see as an end goal and veterans could see as a fun way to spend an evening, rather than as a meaningless stepping stone from one side and an unfun necessity and waste of a game night from the other.
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Post by frumiousbandersnatch on May 31, 2019 16:16:00 GMT
Are gobbers even able to marshal 'jacks or control 'beasts? obviously the answer to that is whatever the Firetruck the writers want it to be, but I dunno if the current lore would allow that, and you can't have a WMH army without them. A new minions theme for the scum of the savage races / non-circle devourer worshippers could be neat. Gobbers, idrians, outlaws, ogrun, etcetera. but then, that's not quite what you're asking for. They can't cast spells, but the can be jack marshalls. So if you were to introduce a new type of commander, say a "War Marshall", you could have a warmachine Gobber army. They could just totally retcon gobbers as magic users they've done similar with different races and such in the setting before (see Iona). That being said... I wouldn't expect a gobber army. They fit fine with the handful of models they have in minions, mercenaries, and Cygnar.
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Post by elricaltovilla on May 31, 2019 16:29:02 GMT
They can't cast spells, but the can be jack marshalls. So if you were to introduce a new type of commander, say a "War Marshall", you could have a warmachine Gobber army. They could just totally retcon gobbers as magic users they've done similar with different races and such in the setting before (see Iona). That being said... I wouldn't expect a gobber army. They fit fine with the handful of models they have in minions, mercenaries, and Cygnar. I don't have any real skin in the game for what army they come up with next. I like making my own though. I know lots of people (at least that I've talked to) would like more Gobbers.
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Post by greytemplar on Jun 1, 2019 15:38:40 GMT
some friends and I did something like you are talking about but it was 35 points. It was pretty entertaining on the whole, but when you stack control or time walk feats it can get old. All of the lower point games are frustrating for me as a trollblood player, we require 9-12 points of krielstone just to play as designed. Give 10 pts a try, do and don't bring the krielstone and see how it feels. Arguments about how a faction or even how the game is designed are ultimately immaterial if it's fun anyway. Yes. The issue is that certain factions are NOT fun at certain point levels precisely because they are not designed for that point level. The game just breaks.
Trolls and Protectorate are really lame at the battlebox level, or slightly above it, because both factions are designed with the assumption that certain support models and units will be present. And when they aren't the faction simply flounders. While other factions, or specific casters, might be absolutely broken.
Goreshade1 is an example of a very broken low point caster. At battlebox level, feating in a min unit of Bane Thralls who can activate the same turn is overwhelming. Plus Lamentation is also much much more nasty at that level too. The Deathwalker assassination protection is also very difficult to overcome at low points too. He's pretty bad at high points, but at lower points he is frankly broken.
Playing as Trolls and Protectorate in general is not going to be fun for the player at low points. Playing against Goreshade1, and many other casters who have disproportionately powerful abilities, at low levels is not fun.
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Post by AdeptusB on Jun 3, 2019 19:51:04 GMT
I was thinking that a gimmick PP could use to justify Gobber or- what are the wild ones called, Bogrin?- Warlocks without resorting to a full-on retcon would be that they work together as covens, using numbers to overcome their individually minimal magic ability. That could potentially spin off into interesting game mechanics.
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Post by elladan52 on Jun 3, 2019 20:11:56 GMT
Let me present a few arguments here, because I think your concern is totally valid and ought to be addressed. Group A: Why Potential Imbalance Will Have a Less Negative Impact Than You Think 1: The game is much shorter, and any bad experience can be immediately overwritten with another one. Unlike a 75pt game, LPGs can be set up, go bad, be completely changed, and be re set up in a matter of minutes. This reduces the impact of NPEs considerably, since it will be rare for a player to be able to only play one or two games in an evening (and therefore often in a week). 2. The arms race that your goreshade scenario creates is what drives a dynamic meta - if Lamentation is dominating a few games, then people can bring casters that rely less on spells. If guns are ruling the roost, people can bring casters that are highly resistant to them. And if Butcher3 is running amok, people can bring things that stymie his approach. And this can all happen over a couple of weeks by the sheer volume of games that can be played! 3. This is not meant to be a 1:1 replacement of 75 pt games. The only thing I think should remain consistent is the list building, meaning no additional restrictions because it's an LPG. Terrain and scenario will need some adjustment, for sure. Bottom line though, balance being off matters less in a more casual format, and this becomes more true the more games you can play in a night. Group B: How to Help with Existing Balance Issues 1. Terrain - setting up 8 (or even 8-10) pieces in the center 24x24 zone of the board with plenty of LoS blocking matters quite a bit and takes the edge off certain super solos. There also needs to be some sort of instant death killbox, we've had it work well at 12" from all sides, but less might also be fine. 2. Scenario - this one needs more testing, bit with 2019 objectives giving some sweet abilities I think they could go a long way to help out certain specific issues. Two objectives per side and 2 flags might be something we try, but the current SR packet is definitely not great for LPGs. But again, this isn't meant for tournaments. 3. Tournaments - I know I just said it isn't meant for them, but I mean for a standard SR. I think you could do some very fun tournaments where your list evolves as the day goes on. The small size and low time should be what is leveraged in creating a new format. I think balance concerns are legitimate, but I also think they won't be as bad as feared. A single game won't be balanced, but I guarantee Goreshade1 won't stay at the top for long. Support heavy faction fun issues: I think in the case of protectorate you are thinking too small (literally), because basically every caster can take choir and a Judicator, which we have had happen locally. It's actually still fun on both sides because it presents a unique challenge to both players. It definitely requires out of the box thinking, and I won't deny that trolls especially can feel that support bloat constriction harshly - but I also think that dismissing it out of hand because of that is a mistake. As a skorne player, beast handlers take up 5/10 potential army points, and that forces me to decide if it's worth it or not to take them. Interestingly, the entire anatomy of the game shifts, and that impacts the value of support. At 75 pts, the amount of models the Krielstone, Choir, and Beast Handlers can affect is large enough to always make it worth it. At 10-20 pts, maybe not? It's worth a try, I think. And hey - if you can get 3-4 games in when you could normally only get 1, data gathering goes much more quickly! Edit: also, I am going to create another thread for this since it isn't really relevant to the OP, please respond there instead.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Jun 3, 2019 20:13:39 GMT
I was thinking that a gimmick PP could use to justify Gobber or- what are the wild ones called, Bogrin?- Warlocks without resorting to a full-on retcon would be that they work together as covens, using numbers to overcome their individually minimal magic ability. That could potentially spin off into interesting game mechanics. A la Egregore & the coven? That's an interesting twist. Having a warlock unit that functions like a warbeast pack comes to mind, but that'd probably be a nightmare to balance.
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gupp
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by gupp on Jun 4, 2019 0:35:08 GMT
gobbers...it’d be interesting to see them as a « tinker « type of force, sort of like the game infernal contraption brought to life... you’d have access to a sort of war jack « kit » with just a few chassis (light, heavy) and different add- ons.
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Post by greytemplar on Jun 4, 2019 0:50:42 GMT
Let me present a few arguments here, because I think your concern is totally valid and ought to be addressed. Group A: Why Potential Imbalance Will Have a Less Negative Impact Than You Think 1: The game is much shorter, and any bad experience can be immediately overwritten with another one. Unlike a 75pt game, LPGs can be set up, go bad, be completely changed, and be re set up in a matter of minutes. This reduces the impact of NPEs considerably, since it will be rare for a player to be able to only play one or two games in an evening (and therefore often in a week). 2. The arms race that your goreshade scenario creates is what drives a dynamic meta - if Lamentation is dominating a few games, then people can bring casters that rely less on spells. If guns are ruling the roost, people can bring casters that are highly resistant to them. And if Butcher3 is running amok, people can bring things that stymie his approach. And this can all happen over a couple of weeks by the sheer volume of games that can be played! 3. This is not meant to be a 1:1 replacement of 75 pt games. The only thing I think should remain consistent is the list building, meaning no additional restrictions because it's an LPG. Terrain and scenario will need some adjustment, for sure. Bottom line though, balance being off matters less in a more casual format, and this becomes more true the more games you can play in a night. Group B: How to Help with Existing Balance Issues 1. Terrain - setting up 8 (or even 8-10) pieces in the center 24x24 zone of the board with plenty of LoS blocking matters quite a bit and takes the edge off certain super solos. There also needs to be some sort of instant death killbox, we've had it work well at 12" from all sides, but less might also be fine. 2. Scenario - this one needs more testing, bit with 2019 objectives giving some sweet abilities I think they could go a long way to help out certain specific issues. Two objectives per side and 2 flags might be something we try, but the current SR packet is definitely not great for LPGs. But again, this isn't meant for tournaments. 3. Tournaments - I know I just said it isn't meant for them, but I mean for a standard SR. I think you could do some very fun tournaments where your list evolves as the day goes on. The small size and low time should be what is leveraged in creating a new format. I think balance concerns are legitimate, but I also think they won't be as bad as feared. A single game won't be balanced, but I guarantee Goreshade1 won't stay at the top for long. Support heavy faction fun issues: I think in the case of protectorate you are thinking too small (literally), because basically every caster can take choir and a Judicator, which we have had happen locally. It's actually still fun on both sides because it presents a unique challenge to both players. It definitely requires out of the box thinking, and I won't deny that trolls especially can feel that support bloat constriction harshly - but I also think that dismissing it out of hand because of that is a mistake. As a skorne player, beast handlers take up 5/10 potential army points, and that forces me to decide if it's worth it or not to take them. Interestingly, the entire anatomy of the game shifts, and that impacts the value of support. At 75 pts, the amount of models the Krielstone, Choir, and Beast Handlers can affect is large enough to always make it worth it. At 10-20 pts, maybe not? It's worth a try, I think. And hey - if you can get 3-4 games in when you could normally only get 1, data gathering goes much more quickly! Edit: also, I am going to create another thread for this since it isn't really relevant to the OP, please respond there instead. 1) You won't be able to override a bad experience if its very likely to just keep happening. If you're playing with a faction that has a severe handicap, or against one with a boost, its going to keep happening in game after game. Particularly in a small meta. If your only opponent only has Goreshade1 as a caster, all your low point games are going to suck. The only remedy for this is either increase the point size or for your opponent to get a different caster. Playing at low points with the same list isn't an option for it remain fun. Add caster swapping might only make it worse if they get another caster who is overpowered at low points, or if the opposite occurs and they get someone who sucks.
Imbalance is actually way more important at the more casual level than at the competitive level. Competitive players can just not play the bad stuff if winning is all they care about. They won't care they can't play X model, if it sucks they don't necessarily care.
Casual players need balance far more because they will play specific models and lists because they want to play that specific model/list. If their favorite thing happens to suck, the game becomes a negative experience because when they play their favorite thing they always get their teeth kicked in.
2) Limited collections stymie the arms race idea. Sure, in a perfect setting where every player has everything in his faction you can get the continual arms race. However, reality doesn't come close to this. Especially with new players, especially with players with a limited budget. And by the time you have most of the faction in your collection, you'll be playing normal sized games and not dillydallying around at the battle box level.
Battlebox games are only useful for learning the game and for while a new player is building up his collection or trying out a new army. But for normal gameplay it is a deficient way to play that can quite easily lead to negative play experiences.
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