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Post by Mr.Human on Jun 2, 2019 17:38:47 GMT
@armchair Warrior said: @mr.Human, you need to put your puppy where your mouth is if you want to maintain your credibility! :-). Anyway, I don’t dislike your list.
What do you mean? If you think the advice is just some random thoughts then you´d be wrong. I also see that some others here are pointing to the same things, i.e. Skathrex.
I´m not sure about the Devastators with Karchev. I almost always had one in my list at the beginning of MK3, and they arn´t bad, but good opponents can ignore them or throw them away, they are a bit expensive just for that. With S0 out you kinda loose the need to have a Devastator up the field to deny and harrass, I find it more important to have that shooting & solos to clear the lanes & give RtW at he same time.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jun 2, 2019 23:10:45 GMT
@armchair Warrior said: @mr.Human, you need to put your puppy where your mouth is if you want to maintain your credibility! :-). Anyway, I don’t dislike your list. What do you mean? If you think the advice is just some random thoughts then you´d be wrong. I also see that some others here are pointing to the same things, i.e. Skathrex. I´m not sure about the Devastators with Karchev. I almost always had one in my list at the beginning of MK3, and they arn´t bad, but good opponents can ignore them or throw them away, they are a bit expensive just for that. With S0 out you kinda loose the need to have a Devastator up the field to deny and harrass, I find it more important to have that shooting & solos to clear the lanes & give RtW at he same time.
Sorry, lost in translation! Just referring to the fact that you said that you liked the Wardog then didn’t put it in your own list. Re Devastators, I think it’s worth one (1), but not sure about 2 since at the same points you can include an additional Destroyer...and yes, Karchev appreciates the boostable AOE gun.
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Post by skathrex on Jun 3, 2019 8:18:35 GMT
I think Devs and Destroyers are in a similar spot. They serve a very specific puprpose in the list so I wouldn't want to overstock them like oyu do with Marauders, but the same time you want at least 1-2. Atm I like my 2-2-4
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Post by Mr.Human on Jun 3, 2019 8:50:30 GMT
@armchair Warrior said: @mr.Human, you need to put your puppy where your mouth is if you want to maintain your credibility! :-). Anyway, I don’t dislike your list. What do you mean? If you think the advice is just some random thoughts then you´d be wrong. I also see that some others here are pointing to the same things, i.e. Skathrex. I´m not sure about the Devastators with Karchev. I almost always had one in my list at the beginning of MK3, and they arn´t bad, but good opponents can ignore them or throw them away, they are a bit expensive just for that. With S0 out you kinda loose the need to have a Devastator up the field to deny and harrass, I find it more important to have that shooting & solos to clear the lanes & give RtW at he same time.
Sorry, lost in translation! Just referring to the fact that you said that you liked the Wardog then didn’t put it in your own list. Re Devastators, I think it’s worth one (1), but not sure about 2 since at the same points you can include an additional Destroyer...and yes, Karchev appreciates the boostable AOE gun. No problem! All good
I do like the dog with Karchev, and I´ve played him with a dog almost 70% of my games I think. It´s just that with S0 you have to start finding points to fit her with a jack without loosing to much of Karchevs BC. The need to actually get that RtW also increases in order to maximize the new found Alpha potential, thus I find having Yuri and the Marksman as small based solos clearing lanes and not being in the way crucial. I´ve played maybe 15 games with S0 and Karchev (no tournament yet), so I still might find myself adding the dog back.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jun 7, 2019 1:59:27 GMT
So I played a game tonight using this list:
Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 0 - Devastator - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 3) - Kodiak - PC: 13 - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11
Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Kovnik Andrei Malakov - PC: 0 - Kodiak - PC: 13 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3
My opponent dropped Anurag with a fairly standard primal terrors build, except he’d dropped a unit of spears for a max unit of the blighted birds. Scenario was the new spread out championship belt, with a circle in the middle and two rectangles pressed up against the side of the board.
There’s a forest in the center of the board closer to one side of the table. I choose the opposite side to keep the large forest closer to him (so I’m not completely blocked out of the circle zone), and end up with big house slightly off center to the left on my side, so the terrain is exacerbating the “two wings” nature of the scenario.
My opponent places his blightbringer centrally, and his birds to my left. The hell mouths are central behind the forest in front of the blight bringer. Everything else is pretty semmtrical. I end up deploying Malakov to the left to handle that zone along with Devastator and one Marauder. They seem well equipped to handle the birds and some tentacles. The rest of the jacks are central and to the right, with a big gap where the damn house is separating Malakov and the 2 jacks from the rest of my force. I put the Destroyer and Marksman central to take shots at tentacles.
Turn 1 My opponent runs forward and threatens to completely jam me out of the zone. I use the MM and Destroyer to RTW up 2 jacks, and run everything else up keeping the bulk of my jacks out of charge range of his cav.
Turn 2 My opponent presses forward, doing some minor chip damage and keeping me out of all the zones. He leaves his Blightbringer writhin boundless charge + RtW range, but I need to clear out jamming models to get there. On my turn, I allocate max focus to 2 juggernauts within charge range of the Blightbringer, feat, and go to town. I have an absolutely explosive feat turn. The Kodiak and Devastator are able to clear out a ton birds and tentacles, and at the end of the zone he’s lost his gargantuan and 40% of his multi wound models, and most of the unit of birds.
Turn 3 My opponent counterattacks. Karchev is too far back to get gallowed into anything useful. He takes out a Marauder and puts a bunch of damage on a bunch of jacks, but he’s unable to take out or really damage a Juggernaut within boundless charge + RtW range of Anurag. He leaves me jammed up, but on my turn I have enough attacks to clear a path and assassinate at the bottom of 3.
During both turns 2 and 3 my opponent was able to really easily keep single models way (waaay) outside my threat range on the rectangles such that there was no way I could score those zones. This turned out not to matter, but did dictate my strategy to go for assassination.
Thoughts:
I really loved Karchev. I didn’t realize how much I miss him, and Sorscha 0 turns the kit on. It’s really the combination of the +2” plus pathfinder with “Free” charges” on top of the non-linear 3” move which makes the whole thing sing. Against multi wound infantry and huge bases? Yes, please.
Sorscha 0 is amazing.
The adjunct was useful. It was nice to start a turn with Karchev being able to independently fully fuel 3 jacks, and the cloud cover was nice for keeping stuff marginally more safe from thrown spears and spells slung through slaves.
Malakov was really useful. Without him, there’s no way I feel like I can play this scenario with this caster. It’s too damn wide. Also, I really liked having 4 more focus on the table, and the 14” run on the Kodiak made contesting everything in the zone easy peas.
In terms of warjacks selection, I continue to like the mix. Having a Devastator wound up being really useful for just clearing out a major swath of infantry. The Destroyer got important work done every round, and Sorscha was able to fuel him up such that I could make Rube Goldberg maneuvers work with the melee jacks (meaning, it was enough to remove key blockers or start RtW chains). And, yeah, and while I’m thinking about it...the Devs being base to base with tentacles and multi wound models is really good.
The mechanics were window dressing, and I felt like I could potentially have cleared one rectangle but not the second. We debriefed my list at the end of the match and decided that the best play would be to upgrade the mechanics to a unit of Eliminators, and drop one 13 point jack (Juggernaut or Kodiak) to a Marauder. I think deployment is key. The widowmaker MM probably has to go to the left or right side in order to keep pressure on single wound scenario contestors hiding out in the corners.
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Post by borderprince on Jun 7, 2019 6:27:34 GMT
The mechanics were window dressing, and I felt like I could potentially have cleared one rectangle but not the second. We debriefed my list at the end of the match and decided that the best play would be to upgrade the mechanics to a unit of Eliminators, and drop one 13 point jack (Juggernaut or Kodiak) to a Marauder. Thanks for the report. Glad it's working.
On the mechanics, I'd consider giving them a bit longer. My thinking was that the mechanics give you a few things:
(1) Zone-claiming unit. Eliminators are definitely better at this;
(2) Repair (for both jacks and Karchev). Given we started this discussion with concern about some shooty lists, that could be quite significant in some damage to repair a clutch arm or the like;
(3) Protection for Malakov. He does like to keep some Suckers around (especially against shooting lists), and Mechanics are definitely better for that job.
On the other hand, Eliminators give you more spot removal, which can help with clearing charge lanes.
My usual inclination would always be to choose the Eliminators because they are that good (as we all know). But in this particular list, with some of the match-ups about which there was concern, I'm not so sure. More on the fence on this than usual I think.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jun 23, 2019 23:09:40 GMT
So I got in another game on Saturday against Rasheth Winds with double derp turtles, a Supreme Guardian battle engine, a bug, an Agonizer Krea, double paingivers, double Eyeless-sight-granting-dudes, the weaponmaster gun solo, a free artillery piece, and a unit of arc nodes who also throw corroding bombs (slingers, I believe).
I played the same set up I played in the prior game, keeping the mechanics in. Some thoughts. A brief game recap. We went three rounds. I went first so he put me on the side without much advantage on terrain. I wound up having a house I could hide my junior warcasters behind.
Turn 1 I run up. Nothing is in range of my guns. Turn 1 he moves up and trivially kills my Widowmaker Marksman, and gets Rasheth's -2 ARM upkeep onto a Marauder.
Turn 2 I press forward, using Road to War to get a loaded Juggernaut onto his bug, and Malakov's kodiak onto one of the turtles. Sorscha 0's boundless charge makes all the difference. I am able to remove the bug, but the damn derp turtle has WAY too many boxes to one round with a Kodiak, even on redline. (Yeah, freaking Krea made that more difficult.) On his turn, he (nearly fully) heals the derp turtle, feats with Rasheth, and is able to take 3 jacks off the table with some chip damage elsewhere.
On my Turn 3 counterattack, I'm under feat, so I have to dedicate serious resources to get 1 turtle and the supreme guardian off the table. I leave Karchev on 1 focus. On his counterattack he tags Karchev with Rasheth through an arc node, and kills him with his remaining guns.
Thoughts.
1. I could have played better. This was my first time against Rasheth and learned a lot. 2. Even playing better, I feel this matchup is 60-40 in Rasheth's favor. His guns are just so damn good under Rasheth. 3. I missed having guns to take out his support, or to create speedbumps. 4. I think Karchev moves to Winterguard when the new theme rules drop.
Let's assume WGK goes unchanged but at 75 points I can take 3 free weapon crews. So, what do you think of this?
Karchev - Adjunct - Devastator (?) - 2X Juggernauts - Kodiak - Marauder Sorscha 0 + Rager (?) WGRC max + 3 Rockets Joe 2X Mortar Crews (free) 1X Field Guns (free)
This feels like it has some game. I like having one big unit of long range guns plus Rockets to surround Karchev, trigger R2W for days, act as speed bumps (tough, no knockdown speed bumps when it matters), etc. I'm undecided on the jack loadout.
a) Swap the Rager + Devastator for a Marauder and 2nd Kodiak? b) Dropping the Rager to a Berserker, the Devastator to a 2nd Kodiak, and fitting in a unit of battle mechanics.
Thoughts?
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Post by michael on Jun 23, 2019 23:17:29 GMT
Why did the Krea make it harder for the Kodiak to kill an Animantarax?
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jun 23, 2019 23:22:27 GMT
Oops, I meant Agonizer. Fixed that!
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Post by skathrex on Jun 25, 2019 9:26:55 GMT
WGK is probably Karchevs new home depending on how themes work out, but i ask you this. If Karchev would have destroyed 3 Jacks in your second list. what are your chances of killing his 3 BEs after that?
I think Rasheth is a game you have to learn with this kind of brick. Killing the Bug was a good move, but commiting a Kodiak into a turtle with 0 chance of killing it may not have been. I think in this matchup its all about turn 2-3. You have to set up in a way not to loose your dmg pieces (marauders and Juggernauts) so that you can still kill his stuff under feat.
Also here come builds into play. In mine I have a forge seer which helps with focus during the feat and I have 4 marauders which love that matchup. This was one of the reasons I wasn't happy with Kodiaks. They simply lack the dmg in these sort of fights.
Another point on experience also is, that you don't have to rush it. If you kill 2 of his huge bases rasheth will mostly go into assasination mode and thats something you have to plan for. Try to catch your models barely in the feat and retreat karchev as far as possible outside of his gun ranges.
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Post by P'tit Nico on Jun 25, 2019 9:48:45 GMT
Even without the Agonizer, a fully loaded Kodiak with Redline and a free charge only has 13% chance to one-round the turtle.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 25, 2019 11:06:06 GMT
WGK is probably Karchevs new home depending on how themes work out, but i ask you this. If Karchev would have destroyed 3 Jacks in your second list. what are your chances of killing his 3 BEs after that? I think Rasheth is a game you have to learn with this kind of brick. Killing the Bug was a good move, but commiting a Kodiak into a turtle with 0 chance of killing it may not have been. I think in this matchup its all about turn 2-3. You have to set up in a way not to loose your dmg pieces (marauders and Juggernauts) so that you can still kill his stuff under feat. Also here come builds into play. In mine I have a forge seer which helps with focus during the feat and I have 4 marauders which love that matchup. This was one of the reasons I wasn't happy with Kodiaks. They simply lack the dmg in these sort of fights. Another point on experience also is, that you don't have to rush it. If you kill 2 of his huge bases rasheth will mostly go into assasination mode and thats something you have to plan for. Try to catch your models barely in the feat and retreat karchev as far as possible outside of his gun ranges. Rumour has it that they're removing almost all of the Advance Move, + Starting Roll and + DZ theme benefits, so I'm not as certain of the WGK supremacy. I'd be keen to see him in Wolves or AC, which have excellent solos
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jun 25, 2019 11:47:19 GMT
Rumour has it that they're removing almost all of the Advance Move, + Starting Roll and + DZ theme benefits I guess that means they'll have to give some themes new benefits instead? I wonder what we can expect?
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 25, 2019 12:02:17 GMT
Rumour has it that they're removing almost all of the Advance Move, + Starting Roll and + DZ theme benefits I guess that means they'll have to give some themes new benefits instead? I wonder what we can expect? As Juris pointed out in a separate thread, there's such a gulf in time between these rumours coming out and the actual rules coming out that we can't be sure of anything. One thing I was wondering though; does the removal of AM make themes like Wolves of Winter, where all the infantry effectively has a built-in advance move, even more effective in scenario?
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Post by auraco on Jun 25, 2019 12:24:18 GMT
I guess that means they'll have to give some themes new benefits instead? I wonder what we can expect? As Juris pointed out in a separate thread, there's such a gulf in time between these rumours coming out and the actual rules coming out that we can't be sure of anything. One thing I was wondering though; does the removal of AM make themes like Wolves of Winter, where all the infantry effectively has a built-in advance move, even more effective in scenario? It probably helps, wolves of winter is already a scenario beast of a theme, I'm not going to complain if it comes out of this even stronger than before. As for the advance move, I'm curious to see what they do with our theme that have advance move, legion of steel is already in a bad spot, and winterguard kommand's best benefit is the advance move on the jacks. From what we've heard, armored corps is keeping the advance move, this is a good thing, because the theme just doesn't work without the advance moves, it's way too easy to keep out of scenario if you can't get the units in the zones, I'm glad they're suppose to keep it.
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