|
Post by hocestbellum on May 19, 2019 8:46:44 GMT
If I want 4-5 jacks with more support, I *think* you’re just strictly better off playing Vlad 1 jack heavy in WGK. - I have played him with a GC (it’s neat), and in WG (advance moves are nice), but I find if I’m reaching for 40+ points of WGK then I want Vlad 1 instead. I think that's probably right. Maybe not if you're thinking of this list as the ARM cracking one (Vlad1 is better over time, but less good than Karchev's feat on a key turn).
That said, I could see going WGK and using 21 points to get Joe (for the accuracy boost), Sorscha0, 2 field guns and 2 mortars. That gives you some decent shooting and 4 advance moves for jacks. Add the Adjunct to get to 25 points, and you've still got 80 points for jacks. You could give Sorscha0 a Destroyer for a pretty reliable RtW trigger, and still get 6 Marauders for Karchev (or 3 Marauders and 4 Berserkers, but I agree about the Berserkers tending to be shot up). That might work.
In terms of averages, Vlad1 SnP feat turn is more damaging in a lot of circumstances. Free Charges = free focus, and SnP works out as half a boost. A fully loaded Karchev-feat Juggernaut has a 72.5% chance to kill an Ironclad on the charge, compared to a 97.25 chance under Vlad1 feat + SnP. If the Vlad Jugger only gets allocated 1 focus it has an 84.1% chance. If the jacks don't need to charge, than Karchev's feat becomes more efficient, but by and large SnP is a perfectly reasonable substitute. Given that, perhaps it's worth considering Vlad1 over Karchev in either theme?
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on May 19, 2019 9:51:28 GMT
Don't disagree with any of that, but the free charges as free focus point does only work where you can charge (and there are some really irritating to Vlad1 lists anti-charge models out there. I don't like seeing Kraye + 2 or 3 Centurions across the table from Vlad1 for that reason).
The one consideration that isn't raised in that comparison is that Vlad1 tends to be more vulnerable to assassination, because you're casting S&P and often allocating as well. Karchev can tank better, which is not irrelevant and one raised in the post starting the thread. That's less of a concern in WGK, where you can have plenty of witless (sorry, heroic) WG to absorb a ranged assassination/make it less likely. In Jaws it is more significant. I would tend to say that Vlad1 is better in WGK for that reason (and he makes Gun Carriages really good). In Jaws, Karchev might have the edge if you're planning the list to deal with gunlines.
|
|
|
Post by Soul Samurai on May 19, 2019 10:42:37 GMT
I mean, you can potentially get free charges from Sorscha 0's Boundless Charge.
Shall we talk about S&P increasing your chance to hit and how PP should give Karchev's feat it's boosted attack rolls back?
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on May 19, 2019 11:51:20 GMT
Shall we talk about S&P increasing your chance to hit and how PP should give Karchev's feat it's boosted attack rolls back? I'm less bothered about that than I used to be. Back in the not so olden days, you needed hit buffs to make Khador jacks' attacks reliable. That is less true now. Tyhe Juggernaut chassis is MAT7 rather than 6, and more significantly, the Berserker chassis is MAT6. You didn't use to be able to rely on Berserkers hitting most opposing heavies, let alone anything else. They still struggle against the more agile heavies, but are decent into DEF10, and your odds aren't terrible up to DEF12. The hit buff is therefore not so important. Nice, as it's never bad to have better odds, but less important.
|
|
|
Post by Soul Samurai on May 19, 2019 13:02:01 GMT
It was nice to be able to fix both accuracy and damage though. Plus, you know, crit effects. Ah well.
|
|
|
Post by thebuoyancyofwater on May 20, 2019 8:26:03 GMT
Yeah I think removing the boosted attacks rolls was really harsh for Karchev, but oh well. If you're talking about piece trading with a Karchev list you should really consider the gun carriages part of that piece trade. So in the list I posted with 4 heavies and 2 gun carriages you effectively have 6 heavy pieces to trade. Also gun carriages like Boundless Charge I think I general looking at things purely from a piece trade perspective is over-simplifying things. How do you factor for the control from 2 models that can slam from 13.5" away and put down multiple AoEs of rough terrain for example? Looking at them purely as pieces traders and ignoring everything else they bring really skews things I feel. Having said that, I like the sound of Vlad1 in WGK running double gun carriages in a jack heavy build instead of Karchev. Will have a play around and see what I can make. Cheers, Dave
|
|
|
Post by michael on May 20, 2019 13:51:31 GMT
. Shall we talk about S&P increasing your chance to hit and how PP should give Karchev's feat it's boosted attack rolls back? NO FRIGGING KIDDING!
|
|
|
Post by michael on May 20, 2019 13:56:37 GMT
... more significantly, the Berserker chassis is MAT6. You didn't use to be able to rely on Berserkers hitting most opposing heavies, let alone anything else. They still struggle against the more agile heavies, but are decent into DEF10, and your odds aren't terrible up to DEF12. The hit buff is therefore not so important. Nice, as it's never bad to have better odds, but less important. Counterpoint: the Berserker chassis is effectively denied access to boosting. MAT 6 is still balls at hitting anything reliably. I’d have confidence against DEF 10 models and that is it. Forget sending it against a DEF 12+ warjack (either light or heavy) and expecting it to be useful. You might get lucky, but the odds are poor.
|
|
smoth
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
|
Post by smoth on May 20, 2019 15:58:01 GMT
“But but armor and boxes scare me because i am a moron!”
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on May 20, 2019 16:15:02 GMT
... more significantly, the Berserker chassis is MAT6. You didn't use to be able to rely on Berserkers hitting most opposing heavies, let alone anything else. They still struggle against the more agile heavies, but are decent into DEF10, and your odds aren't terrible up to DEF12. The hit buff is therefore not so important. Nice, as it's never bad to have better odds, but less important. Counterpoint: the Berserker chassis is effectively denied access to boosting. MAT 6 is still balls at hitting anything reliably. I’d have confidence against DEF 10 models and that is it. Forget sending it against a DEF 12+ warjack (either light or heavy) and expecting it to be useful. You might get lucky, but the odds are poor. Must be my experience with Mercs - I'm OK with MAT6 jacks as long as they're cheap enough. A Berserker has decent odds of hitting with at least one attack under Karchev's feat and the odds aren't terrible of hitting with both against a DEF11 model (DEF12 I would only expect one, but the ARM tends to be lower then).
Like most things in life, the trick to being content is low expectations. Why cynics are generally happier than optimists.
|
|
smoth
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
|
Post by smoth on May 20, 2019 16:41:47 GMT
Maybe on charge, but ps 16 is pretty meh, i bring zerker(s) for the aforementioned mornis to tilt over. Personally i want more than 1 attack but seldom can justify the grolar(1-3 pts over costed imo)
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on May 20, 2019 16:43:48 GMT
... more significantly, the Berserker chassis is MAT6. You didn't use to be able to rely on Berserkers hitting most opposing heavies, let alone anything else. They still struggle against the more agile heavies, but are decent into DEF10, and your odds aren't terrible up to DEF12. The hit buff is therefore not so important. Nice, as it's never bad to have better odds, but less important. Counterpoint: the Berserker chassis is effectively denied access to boosting. MAT 6 is still balls at hitting anything reliably. I’d have confidence against DEF 10 models and that is it. Forget sending it against a DEF 12+ warjack (either light or heavy) and expecting it to be useful. You might get lucky, but the odds are poor. Hmmmm.......
I think a viable question (but one would REALLY need to play a ton of Zerk spam rather than theorymachine it) is whether - with our "spam support" casters (Karchev, Vlad1, Butcher1, ARGUABLY sorcha3) that 50% chance of going "boom" is a viable tradeoff? At 8 points they really are dirt cheap. Going boom always feels crushingly frustrating when you have 1 or 2. But when you have 5-6-(7?) do you really care? It starts to become a feature not a bug - as that is a BIG zone that suffers a Pow 14.
|
|
|
Post by hocestbellum on May 20, 2019 19:28:49 GMT
Counterpoint: the Berserker chassis is effectively denied access to boosting. MAT 6 is still balls at hitting anything reliably. I’d have confidence against DEF 10 models and that is it. Forget sending it against a DEF 12+ warjack (either light or heavy) and expecting it to be useful. You might get lucky, but the odds are poor. Must be my experience with Mercs - I'm OK with MAT6 jacks as long as they're cheap enough. A Berserker has decent odds of hitting with at least one attack under Karchev's feat and the odds aren't terrible of hitting with both against a DEF11 model (DEF12 I would only expect one, but the ARM tends to be lower then).
Like most things in life, the trick to being content is low expectations. Why cynics are generally happier than optimists.
Although I've not played Mercs, I think I take a similar approach. I will never stop deriding the Spriggan for MAT6, but I just don't care on the Berzerker. I tend to think of it as a light jack these days; 'MAT6, 27 boxes, cheap' is pretty much the ballpark there. I also want to give it some time as a piece-trade initiator and contesting piece. At 8 points I don't really care what you do to it, but at P16 you'll take some lumps if you ignore it. Regarding spamming them, I think only Vlad and S3 could pull that off. Their buffs are wide ranging, and apply turn on-turn. Having one massive turn with Karchev doesn't help unless it wins you the game; afterwards you're just left with weak jacks. But under S3 any Berserker hits almost as hard as the Butcher as long as there's a MoW around.
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on May 20, 2019 19:35:12 GMT
Must be my experience with Mercs - I'm OK with MAT6 jacks as long as they're cheap enough. A Berserker has decent odds of hitting with at least one attack under Karchev's feat and the odds aren't terrible of hitting with both against a DEF11 model (DEF12 I would only expect one, but the ARM tends to be lower then).
Like most things in life, the trick to being content is low expectations. Why cynics are generally happier than optimists.
Although I've not played Mercs, I think I take a similar approach. I will never stop deriding the Spriggan for MAT6, but I just don't care on the Berzerker. I tend to think of it as a light jack these days; 'MAT6, 27 boxes, cheap' is pretty much the ballpark there. I also want to give it some time as a piece-trade initiator and contesting piece. At 8 points I don't really care what you do to it, but at P16 you'll take some lumps if you ignore it. Regarding spamming them, I think only Vlad and S3 could pull that off. Their buffs are wide ranging, and apply turn on-turn. Having one massive turn with Karchev doesn't help unless it wins you the game; afterwards you're just left with weak jacks. But under S3 any Berserker hits almost as hard as the Butcher as long as there's a MoW around. Something I haven't considered is that with the adjunct being a pretty common piece now in our armies whether, with proper terrain, he can really shine as a piece to start the piece trade with (as per your observation). So consider - put a cloud on him and now Def 13. Find a hill (or a wall) - Def 15. A hill with a wall - Def 17!!! 8 points < 14 points (the cost of a devestator). At Def 11 he really can be shot off the board. But def 13 is a nice spot for some swings and misses. I might have to take a stab at my Butcher 3 list and see, if I squezzed him in, what things would look like.
|
|
|
Post by Armchair Warrior on May 21, 2019 3:50:11 GMT
OK, time for some lists and commentary based on two helpings of somewhat dated experience (played him a lot when Juggernauts were 12 points, but haven’t played him much since), and a little bit of theorymachine of how he’d perform in the current meta.
Let’s start with this — I would pair him with someone running a ton of swarming doomreavers. So I’m basically dropping Karchev in one of two situations: - the shooting is too intense for doomreavers to handle. Think... Crucible Guard, Cygnar, Skorne double derps, Ret space ticks. Think huge bases. - the armor is too hard for doomreavers to reliably crack, and Karchev would be reliably advantaged. In my meta...Grymkin beast brick.
For all the great discussion we’ve had about Berserkers, I don’t think they’re worth considering. They’re just too easily picked apart by guns to matter before the fight gets going. And, against hard armor, they’re not great for starting a piece trade since I think you’re just throwing a jack away.
I’m looking at list building through the lens of the most recent Steamroller CID. I think Karchev needs to pack some tools to play a scenario which is a bit more spread out, which makes Malakov look a bit more attractive. He also MUST have at least one unit (mechs or eliminators). I think this is my base list:
Karchev: 8 is Enough 4 / 4 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 0 - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4) - Marauder - PC: 11 - Kodiak - PC: 13 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Kovnik Andrei Malakov - PC: 0 - Kodiak - PC: 13 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3
The idea here is pretty simple: bring enough Juggernaut chassis jacks and focus to piece trade favorably to annhilate everything that can kill Karchev. The 2 Destroyers are there to trigger RTW. Double Marauders are for large bases. Double Juggers kill everything. Double Kodiaks help with pathfinder and infantry. I put the Kodiak on Malakov to stack speed on speed, and send a POW 18 heavy in with a 7” throw.
With the Adjunct in the list I’m disinclined to put a jack on the Forge Seer, since I don’t want to have to worry about keeping him alive and the Jack Marshall benefits seem strictly worse than the feat and RTW benefits.
I also built a couple of Jaws lists dropping down to 7 jacks with more support. I wanted to try one with Behemoth and Widowmakers in it to both maximize RtW triggers, and to have Behemoth in for feat turn since, well, he’s just ridiculous on feat turn.
Karchev & Big B 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 0 - Behemoth - PC: 25 (Battlegroup Points Used: 25) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 - Kodiak - PC: 13 - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 0 - Marauder - PC: 11 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8
So here’s the thinking. I lost Malakov to pick up the Marksman who (A) is really good, (B) makes Widowmakers even better. I still somehow fit in 3 Marauders, 2 Juggernauts, a pair of Juggs, and a Kodiak. The Widowmakers and Big B end up being my infantry clearing, and in a wide scenario I’m likely going to have to play Sorscha off center, and in those instances I’ll second guess leaving Malakov in the bag.
Finally, here’s what my list looks like fitting in both Widowmakers and Double Eliminators. I don’t love losing a Juggernaut but something has to go to fit in the warrior melee troops and I don’t dislike the result.
Khador - Karchev’s Widowliminators
Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 0 - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Destroyer - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4) - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5
Finally, this is my best shot at a WG list. I’m not sure about a Juggernaut over a Kodiak because I think the list really suffers from lack of pathfinder, but that feels like I make up for it a bit with 2 advance moves, boundless charges, and a bunch of guns. The inclusion of double destroyers, 3 rockets, and a full unit of Rifles plus Joe and Sorscha maybe (hopefully) puts enough ranged pressure to force an enemy to close.
Khador - Karchev’s Winterguard
Theme: Winter Guard Kommand 1 / 1 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4 - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 4 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 4 Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 9 Grunts: 13 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0
I hear people saying now - the WGI are better at scenario! Yeah, but the additional round of shooting for RTW triggers is key to making the army work. The Mortar Crew is just gravy to take pot shots at support or follow up on Marauder hits.
I looked at lists with more advance moves, but to me it felt like either too many points in warrior models (and then the list wasn’t doing what I wanted it to do), or giving up too much on board presence by ONLY bringing weapon crews.
So, of the 4 different approaches, which do you like? What do you think?
Thanks for your comments.
|
|