|
Post by Armchair Warrior on May 17, 2019 3:22:15 GMT
Hear me out.
With the prevalence of large bases, we should all be looking towards the Marauder, and nobody spams supercharged Marauders like Special K.
With the threat of more powerful gunlines, we should be looking at casters with good defenses. Nobody packs armor and boxes like Karchev.
Sorscha 0 is here. (You bought her when she went on sale at PP’s website, right?). Well, the problem with Karchev has always been absorbing a hard alpha, but now a 13”-14” threat range is real.
So, I’m thinking about putting Karchev back in my pairing in lieu of Armored Korp. He was my go-to caster in the good old days of 12 point Juggernauts. Yeah, I miss those, but the 13 point ones are still good. And the 11 point Marauders are too.
So, what do you think?
|
|
|
Post by Soul Samurai on May 17, 2019 6:22:13 GMT
Sounds good to me. Got any jank?
|
|
|
Post by hocestbellum on May 17, 2019 7:20:04 GMT
Do it!
Every time one of these threads comes up I end up trying to convince people to play him in WGK instead of Jaws, so I'm just going to do it from the start this time:
"Hey, Armchair Warrior! You should try playing him in WGK!"
My reasons for suggesting this are that firstly: Everyone wants to take S0, and you can still do that. Secondly: Jaws is god-awful at scenario, fast lists are prevalent, and if the CID is anything to go by the scenarios are getting even more spread out. WGK's advance moves at least give you a fighting chance. Thirdly: You get some flexibility. You get some ranged power. WGI are cheap, hard hitting, and quite accurate. You can use them to trigger RtW, use them as a screening unit, use them to remove lane blockers. Hell, you have the tools to make them no-KD tough. And finally: you can play Karchev a bit further forwards, somewhat protected by your sac pawns.
You do lose out on the Forge Seers, though, and the Kayazy to a certain extent.
Now, a MASSIVE caveat to this is that I don't play Karchev! I could be miles off base. But whenever anyone talks about their Karchev lists they seem to run into the same problems, and it always seems to me that WGK helps with their issues.
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on May 17, 2019 7:25:56 GMT
I think I mentioned him recently in a "what to do about Crucible Guard" thread. I'd agree about WGK - I'd rather have lots of cheap sac pawns than paying for a couple of Ragers (I think you do need some anti-range tech, not necessarily for assassination, but the various special effects lots of guns now have).
The question is how much you want to spam Marauders, or go more balanced. You can either go for 20 points or so of WG models and still have lots of points for jacks (but probably fewer advance moves), or 40 points of WG and fewer jacks. I'd probably also go for a Destroyer on Sorscha0 for a fairly reliable ranged package to trigger Road to War.
|
|
|
Post by thebuoyancyofwater on May 17, 2019 8:13:52 GMT
I tried him in WGK with S0, 2 gun carriages, enough weapon crews to give his heavies advance move, then I think 2 juggernauts and 2 kodiaks (plus I think a destroyer or rager on S0). Was actually very effective! Given the AoEs I feel I could switch the kodiaks for marauders and use the points for the adjunct.
Cheers, Dave
|
|
|
Post by hocestbellum on May 17, 2019 8:19:18 GMT
I tried him in WGK with S0, 2 gun carriages, enough weapon crews to give his heavies advance move, then I think 2 juggernauts and 2 kodiaks (plus I think a destroyer or rager on S0). Was actually very effective! Given the AoEs I feel I could switch the kodiaks for marauders and use the points for the adjunct. Cheers, Dave Something like this? Khador Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] Winter Guard Kommand [Karchev 1] Karchev the Terrible [+30] - Juggernaut [13] - Juggernaut [13] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [4] - Rager [10] Winter Guard Field Gun Crew [4] Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)] Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)] Winter Guard Gun Carriage [17] Winter Guard Gun Carriage [17] That's a really interesting one! What sort of lists did you play it into?
|
|
|
Post by thebuoyancyofwater on May 17, 2019 8:35:21 GMT
I tried him in WGK with S0, 2 gun carriages, enough weapon crews to give his heavies advance move, then I think 2 juggernauts and 2 kodiaks (plus I think a destroyer or rager on S0). Was actually very effective! Given the AoEs I feel I could switch the kodiaks for marauders and use the points for the adjunct. Cheers, Dave Something like this? Khador Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] Winter Guard Kommand [Karchev 1] Karchev the Terrible [+30] - Juggernaut [13] - Juggernaut [13] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [4] - Rager [10] Winter Guard Field Gun Crew [4] Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)] Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)] Winter Guard Gun Carriage [17] Winter Guard Gun Carriage [17] That's a really interesting one! What sort of lists did you play it into? Looks good! I just did some tinkering and came up with: Winter Guard Kommand Karchev +30 -Greylord Adjunct -4 -Juggernaut -13 -Marauder -11 -Marauder -11 -Marauder -11 Winter Guard Gun Carriage -17 Winter Guard Gun Carriage -17 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff -4 -Rager -10 Battle Mechaniks (Min) -3 Winter Guard Field Gun -4 Winter Guard Mortar -0(5) Winter Guard Mortar -0(5) Without the adjunct life might get a little easier on points. Not tried him with Karchev and not sure he's needed. If he's out I probably upgrade a marauder to a juggernaut and maybe drop the mechaniks for a field gun. Only tried it (something similar at least) once, it was into High Reclaimer with the judicator and mister +1 to stuff junior. Won on assassination in the end. While the judicator could take stuff out easily, the gun carriages could prevent him drawing line to the marauders, who he obviously needed to avoid due to the threat of feat and Boundless Charge. The artillery and other gun carriage were able to obliterate a heap of infantry and vengers too, plus the gun carriages could reach the pesky last unit members hiding firther back for feat beacons. As such I believe the feat was used to try to keep units relevant. I think I put up a battle report actually. Really keen to try this again after chatting about it! Cheers, Dave EDIT: Slightly mis-remembered the battle. The report is on page 4 of my reports thread
|
|
|
Post by michael on May 17, 2019 12:17:57 GMT
Use Gun Carriages if you play WGK. They are what make the theme work.
|
|
|
Post by Mr.Human on May 17, 2019 15:23:46 GMT
Vlad 2 with MoWs and Karchev in Jaws has been my pairing since mk3 started, actually played them some in mk2 as well.
As I've said, his main problem is the scenarios.
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on May 17, 2019 15:35:35 GMT
I am going to push back and push for Jaws. Yes. Its benefits SUCK compared to everyone else's. But I think that this is a list that has to focus in on piece trading. I PROBABLY wants to use Kayazy for bodies - and while not DIRT cheap like WGI they are still cheap. But the big reason is that you really want those Forge Seers to fuel. On the turn that matters I think you have to anticipate moving from Countercharge to RtW. I just don't see how you don't do that if you don't want to accept a brutal alpha on our SLLLLOOOOOWWWWW SP4 jacks. Then you are going to need to make some decisions about Arcane Turbine. SOmetimes it won't matter - until you need to get a bit more forward and some stupid rough terrain is getting in your way. And you are going to want to buy a good amount of attacks to allow your jacks to truly trade up. SO something like..... conflictchamber.com/?c3201b_-0x7a7qkWkWkTkTnjhFhFlOkV8rce8eKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf [Karchev 1] Karchev the Terrible [+30] - Devastator [14] - Juggernaut [13] - Juggernaut [13] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] - Greylord Adjunct [0(4)] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [4] - Beast 09 [18] Widowmaker Marksman [4] Kayazy Assassins (min) [9] Widowmaker Scouts [8] You can use Beast to help with Shield Guards and of course is just great period. Your widows are there to trigger RoW if that is the right thing _OR_ sit back in the back field and start helping scaple out things on the approach. I went with the Marksman but you could go with Mechanics and probably worth testing. 6 relatively cheap assassins. Depending on the way that things shake out you could drop to Hillbillies and then go with the Tinker to help keep Super K running on peak efficiency. Alternatively, you could figure out a way to find points to get Big B in there. Is it potentially jammed out? Sure. Welcome to Khador. But I think maximizing jacks is the way to go and forgeseers are going to give you the jack support a jack list needs. But I think ultimately any K list that doesn't have at least 5 melee jacks is going to suffer from piece trading. Feat is good but it is not THAT good if they get the alpha.
|
|
|
Post by steeltitan on May 17, 2019 16:33:17 GMT
I am going to push back and push for Jaws. Yes. Its benefits SUCK compared to everyone else's. But I think that this is a list that has to focus in on piece trading. But the big reason is that you really want those Forge Seers to fuel. Although I love the idea of K1 in WGK with double GCs I agree with sand20go. What good does his feat do if you cant allocate properly to your jacks? I play against armies that can remove 3+ jacks on feat turn (e.g. Crucible Guard) so running 4 jacks total doesnt cut it. I generally dont know if K1 has any game into CG because some lists dont have many RtW triggers but I came up with this: Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 - Juggernaut - PC: 13 - Juggernaut - PC: 13 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Kell Bailoch - PC: 5 A fair few models to trigger RtW at distance but i also like Beast09 and a shield guard so I wouldnt be against making that change.
|
|
|
Post by Xtreme on May 17, 2019 17:32:56 GMT
I'd never considered Gun Carriages with Karchev before, may have to give this a try.
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on May 17, 2019 21:06:23 GMT
I am going to push back and push for Jaws. Yes. Its benefits SUCK compared to everyone else's. But I think that this is a list that has to focus in on piece trading. But the big reason is that you really want those Forge Seers to fuel. Although I love the idea of K1 in WGK with double GCs I agree with sand20go. What good does his feat do if you cant allocate properly to your jacks? I play against armies that can remove 3+ jacks on feat turn (e.g. Crucible Guard) so running 4 jacks total doesnt cut it. I generally dont know if K1 has any game into CG because some lists dont have many RtW triggers but I came up with this: Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 - Juggernaut - PC: 13 - Juggernaut - PC: 13 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Kell Bailoch - PC: 5 A fair few models to trigger RtW at distance but i also like Beast09 and a shield guard so I wouldnt be against making that change. Love Kell but note he doesn't trigger RoW. Which sucks. SO I probably go with Tinker and Min mechanics just to give myself another solo to score and then some mechanical help so that, for example, Locke doesn't ruin your day by taking out cortexes. Probably not an efficient strategy for her with repair and his feat in play as you can heal up, empower, and then wreck a couple of toros pretty easily if your ForgeSeers are out of feat.
|
|
|
Post by Armchair Warrior on May 18, 2019 17:09:16 GMT
Given how much I used to play Karchev, I struggle more than I should with list building. That said, my general M.O. with Karchev:
- I won’t ever take him with less than 7 jacks. I want to be able to piece trade and that means stuffing him with cheap jacks to trade. If I want 4-5 jacks with more support, I *think* you’re just strictly better off playing Vlad 1 jack heavy in WGK.
- I need some kind of ranged RtW triggers to start the chain. Countercharge is just to easy to play around so RtW and the +3” of non linear movement is where it’s at.
- I always want at least one unit. Mechanics (they always seem to get a little work done) or Eliminators.
Preferences and new observations:
- Berserkers are playable, but they always seem to just die to easy on the way in to guns so I find myself reaching for them.
- I think the Adjunct is just strictly better, always, to a second Forge Seer. He’s like one free focus, but SPD 6 is just so much better than SPD 4 and the portable cloud gets Karchev up to a respectable 14 to guns (or you can make a decent-ish cloud wall with the Kodiaks you brought).
- I didn’t like Malakov in the old world, but I think you might want him in Jaws for the scenario game in order to bring another Battlegroup into a far zone. Not decided on this yet.
- I have played him with a GC (it’s neat), and in WG (advance moves are nice), but I find if I’m reaching for 40+ points of WGK then I want Vlad 1 instead.
I’ll post some list thoughts later...
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on May 18, 2019 19:32:29 GMT
If I want 4-5 jacks with more support, I *think* you’re just strictly better off playing Vlad 1 jack heavy in WGK. - I have played him with a GC (it’s neat), and in WG (advance moves are nice), but I find if I’m reaching for 40+ points of WGK then I want Vlad 1 instead. I think that's probably right. Maybe not if you're thinking of this list as the ARM cracking one (Vlad1 is better over time, but less good than Karchev's feat on a key turn).
That said, I could see going WGK and using 21 points to get Joe (for the accuracy boost), Sorscha0, 2 field guns and 2 mortars. That gives you some decent shooting and 4 advance moves for jacks. Add the Adjunct to get to 25 points, and you've still got 80 points for jacks. You could give Sorscha0 a Destroyer for a pretty reliable RtW trigger, and still get 6 Marauders for Karchev (or 3 Marauders and 4 Berserkers, but I agree about the Berserkers tending to be shot up). That might work.
|
|