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Post by onijet01 on May 24, 2019 2:56:55 GMT
sand20go im calling your bias out. Appologize to Big B!.
You used so much bias in your assumption it is sickening. Making Big B pay to charge, assumming base stats. Then you compared it to models with "free charges, +2 str or melee damage buff applied" without adding in any of our factions support is wrong.
It proves that your oppinion of models is jaded and should not be taken onto account.
So to open your eyes here are support models that work in khador. Jack Marshal* Brittle Frost* Ice Cage* Boundless Charge* RedLine*
All of which can be free in selected theme forces.
So Appoligize to Big B.
This is not an attack but a call out on misleading information. Talking about this game should always be pure logic personal bias be dammed.
P.s. behemoth works best in an out of theme list. Weard but its true
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leander
Junior Strategist
Posts: 185
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Post by leander on May 24, 2019 7:26:54 GMT
yeah If I could I'd pick behemoth in legion of steel or winterguard kommand just like that. pity he's chained to the jaws theme.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on May 24, 2019 7:55:41 GMT
So to open your eyes here are support models that work in khador. Jack Marshal* Brittle Frost* Ice Cage* Boundless Charge* RedLine* All of which can be free in selected theme forces. If I'm remembering correctly neither Brittle Frost nor Ice Cage are available free in the theme force Behemoth is in? Could be wrong. I would also say Malakov1 is the worst place to stick Behemoth in Jaws, so Redline is arguably out as well. That leaves jack marshals and Boundless Charge. However I agree there's bias showing. And I'm honestly surprised at the idea of not walking and shooting with Big B in turn 2! Likely turn 3 as well to be honest. He's not a front line jack and shouldn't be used as one. Lead with juggies etc while Big B adds his very strong guns to the mix (handy for crowd control or softening up lights/heavies for your other jacks). Cheers, Dave
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Post by sand20go on May 24, 2019 16:47:29 GMT
sand20go im calling your bias out. Appologize to Big B!. You used so much bias in your assumption it is sickening. Making Big B pay to charge, assumming base stats. Then you compared it to models with "free charges, +2 str or melee damage buff applied" without adding in any of our factions support is wrong. It proves that your oppinion of models is jaded and should not be taken onto account. So to open your eyes here are support models that work in khador. Jack Marshal* Brittle Frost* Ice Cage* Boundless Charge* RedLine* All of which can be free in selected theme forces. So Appoligize to Big B. This is not an attack but a call out on misleading information. Talking about this game should always be pure logic personal bias be dammed. P.s. behemoth works best in an out of theme list. Weard but its true The question really comes down to "how do I think about buffs"? I think it is hard to argue, for example, that Behemoth+Fury+Sorscha+Butcher1's feat+Crush isn't damm good. But that isn't what I did. I took models (molik or Stalker) and then added a buff that COMBINED is STILL less than 25 points. And those buffers are in a special category because they are, I would argue, near auto includes or at least very common. They are not Sorsha0 - who will free ALSO requires you to bring a jack in a faction where many (most?) of our jack buffs are battlegroup-centric - or to put behemoth under Jack marshall so you are max fueled (2 Forgeseers) 2 focus. And again - that stalker+Lynessa is 4 points LESS than a behemoth and still has a greater than 50% chance of getting ride of the railess - while having a greater threat range, longer reach, and other utility. And proof is probably in the pudding - most big cons right now do NOT have BB - because at 25 points it is a huge investment and thus HAS to get the work done of 2 juggers. That is a big lift.
Regarding shooting - yes. In theory machine you can walk and shoot. But in real WM the problem is scenario presence. Depending on Theme you are at the 15 or 18 inch line after running turn 1. The issue is then whether being at 19 or 22 is going to be viable. Sometimes is....but other times not. I find that ALL THE TIME with Victor - that not getting board position is a trap - that it is not a clear cut answer on 2 whether to walk and shoot or to charge and get board position, possibly take out a jack/beast and get up the board so you have presence. At least in my meta EVERYONE starts with the position "how am I going to win on scenario". Not getting up the board is just a recipe for getting jammed out, having them score their back elements and losing.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on May 24, 2019 17:07:13 GMT
After Themepocalypse more then ever, it is unwise to do cross faction comparisons at a Model vs Model level. The game has a more holistic way of being balance at the moment, thanks to Theme Forces being design as a complete package and not a collection of individual interactions. That said, I find very little reason to run Behemoth if he is not being Marshalled by 2 Forge Seers. That is probably our single most devastating module we got, and it just got better with Sorscha_0. There is not much in the game that can survive a Behemoth Counter Punch under Crush. That said, don't let him get knocked down, frozen, or blinded lol
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Post by michael on May 24, 2019 17:36:03 GMT
Folks — all the argument about S0 being “free” or “this is cheaper or requires support model X” and whatnot isn’t getting us anywhere. Most of these comparisons have real flaws (S0 might be “free”, but she has to pay at least 8 points to bring a warjack; nobody leaves PGBH or Choir out of their lists, etc.) and we could spend hours listing all the caveats to our arguments.
Let’s just call it a draw, yes?
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Post by tjhairball on Jun 5, 2019 17:11:01 GMT
sand20go im calling your bias out. Appologize to Big B!. You used so much bias in your assumption it is sickening. Making Big B pay to charge, assumming base stats. Then you compared it to models with "free charges, +2 str or melee damage buff applied" without adding in any of our factions support is wrong. It proves that your oppinion of models is jaded and should not be taken onto account. So to open your eyes here are support models that work in khador. Jack Marshal* Brittle Frost* Ice Cage* Boundless Charge* RedLine* All of which can be free in selected theme forces. So Appoligize to Big B. This is not an attack but a call out on misleading information. Talking about this game should always be pure logic personal bias be dammed. P.s. behemoth works best in an out of theme list. Weard but its true Behemoth as a piece may work best out of theme, but it's hard to see that outweighing a 10+% advantage in materiel across an entire list. Themes are just plain too strong in competitive terms. Behemoth saw a lot of play right at the start of Mk III and not as much now was, in large part, because that was before the themepocalypse restricted his play options significantly.
Within the context of the theme, that means no brittle frost or ice cage to debuff the target. The rest of the bonuses are battlegroup-assignment dependent, except for Boundless Charge. Which leaves you the following set of Behemoth enhancement options.
- Behemoth marshaled on Forge Seer.
- Behemoth gaining focus from Forge Seer's Empower.
- Behemoth in warcaster's battlegroup, access to battlegroup-specific warcaster buffs.
- Behemoth in Malakov1's battlegroup, access to Redline.
- Behemoth given Boundless Charge.
All of these options for supporting Behemoth are expensive. Warjack support for Khador is simply very expensive compared to warnoun support in other factions.
There are two ways we can look at the price gap between Behemoth and other models. We can compare Behemoth to other 25-ish point modules - knowing that Behemoth can get better with support, but that Behemoth with support will be even more expensive - or we can compare Behemoth to smaller modules and use as a basis the comparison per-point.
For example:
(A) Behemoth (25 points) vs (B) Juggernaut plus Widowmakers + Marksman (25 points).
Because additional warnouns have non-linear utility (thanks to focus / fury system rules and warcaster battlegroups) it's hard to make the correct adjustment in cost between, say, Behemoth (25 pts) vs 2 Nomads (24 pts); the same resource investment that puts 3 focus on Behemoth doesn't put 3 focus on both Nomads.
Same thing was an issue in trying to compare Behemoth to other pieces in Mk II, but it was actually easier in some ways. Take the Module A vs Module B comparison above (13 pts in Mk II).
In Mk II, it was honestly a simpler comparison because Behemoth could shoot while closing at basically the same rate as the Juggernaut (by trampling instead of running), and could continue to shoot while in melee.In Mk III, Behemoth has significantly stronger shooting (thanks to the Powerful Attack rule) but it comes at a subtle opportunity cost (slows Behemoth down significantly) and can't be used at the same time as Behemoth's melee capability.
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