crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on May 16, 2019 4:34:45 GMT
* P.S. - Did you know that two charging Doom Reavers are basically guaranteed to kill any fresh warpwolf on the charge? This is an amazing fact I learned from a local Circle player. (Hopefully he doesn’t use this forum and doesn’t think I’m picking on him, if he sees this...) But this is a good example of the seriously overhyped “Khador is best at everything” mentality (from non-Khador players) that seemingly somehow pervades the WM community... I find that type of mentality prevalent in the Lower-Mid to Scrub Tier players :-P usually the ones that want to absolutely kill everything on the table with disregard to positioning, scenario, target priority, etc. etc. lol What I actually see a big gap is in the 12 point slot, we have jacks in the 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, and even 19 (WTF are you doing there Black Ivan?) That jump is really weird on the points, I would actually like to see Destroyer in the 12 point gap. Seems to me that giving a gun to a MAT 7, RAT 4 jack, who can't even shoot it in melee, is a Downgrade from the Juggernaut. edit: apparently we don't have a niner either TBH, I think if we had any single point options or standalone 2 point solos, that would go a long way to addressing this issue because it seems like the "12 point gap" is less a serious problem with Khador list-building and more just OCD-type behaviors that are triggered when you see 74/75 points in War Room.
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Post by borderprince on May 16, 2019 4:55:46 GMT
So my point here is that in the spammable range and sans Jugger, we have no jacks with two initials and a P+S>16. I suppose technically there's Drago, but:
(1) Character, so not spammable; and
(2) Drago.
I get the point about P+S16 for two initials. However, that is with two initials, and there aren't that many jacks which have two >P+S16 initial attacks in the budget range. The Hammersmith in Cygnar (which would be a really great jack in Khador) is the only one I can think of. It looks like it's a quality of attacks vs quantity issue. Add to that that the Marauder and Kodiak also bring other things to the table when dealing with heavies (Combo-Smite; smash and grab), and I'm not really bothered.
The point about not being able to upgrade the hitting power is an interesting one. Doesn't really bother me, but it's an interesting point about faction design. Maybe a hangover from Mk2 where Beast'09 would show up without Sorscha, as an upgrade to the Juggernaut? Now Beast is limited in availability, we notice this more?
I suspect PP don't want to go above P+S19 for large, but not huge, based models. And MAT7 is the cap for non-character heavies too. But we could get damage/combat upgrade in other ways. A Khador jack with Juggernaut stats but free charges (maybe even just counter-charge) would be a big deal, as it's effectively one extra attack. Similarly abilities like Retaliatory Strike or the like.
Worth remembering that almost all the examples of upgrades on spammable jacks also tend to diversify the model: Guardian adds reach and MAT, but also an arc node; Stormclad adds a ranged attack. That was what the Spriggan used to be for us, but isn't so much now due to the reduced MAT making it less of an upgrade. Personally, I'm usually sceptical about the benefits of the diversification, especially for my beatstick models.
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Post by anderfreak on May 16, 2019 6:20:59 GMT
I do have to say that after reading this thread I actually kind of like the fact that the juggernaut doesn't have a straight upgrade.
It's cheap yet irreplaceable in our lineup as far as outight power goes, and any increase in points needs to be justified, not with an increase in pow, but a need for utility.
It's an interesting design choice, even if it's debatable as to whether it's a good design choice.
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Post by Soul Samurai on May 16, 2019 7:44:30 GMT
I do have to say that after reading this thread I actually kind of like the fact that the juggernaut doesn't have a straight upgrade. It's cheap yet irreplaceable in our lineup as far as outight power goes, and any increase in points needs to be justified, not with an increase in pow, but a need for utility. It's an interesting design choice, even if it's debatable as to whether it's a good design choice. That's a fair perspective. I feel that it's a bit of an issue though that makes it a little hard to swallow paying much more for a jack that isn't "better". At least when it comes to jacks that are predominantly melee jacks. Something with a decent gun, like a Destroyer, does not need to be commit to do work, but a melee jack does - and is likely to be destroyed afterwards. So if a jack costs more and isn't getting the same amount of work done before it dies... I dunno. I mean, I guess balancing models by cost is always a delicate job. That's something that I find interesting about Monsterpocalypse: models don't really have a cost, so you can't just write a model with better rules and then try to balance it by making it cost more. Instead armies need to be balanced based purely on ability. It feels like you're juggling less variables so it should be easier to achieve balance. Yes, that comes at the cost of variety, so Monsterpocalypse can never really have as many different distinct model options, but that's the advantage of a smaller game. And these days I personally find that the smaller the game the better.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on May 16, 2019 9:42:23 GMT
Maybe we should be viewing the juggernaut as the upgrade of the berserker... I mean, I guess balancing models by cost is always a delicate job. That's something that I find interesting about Monsterpocalypse: models don't really have a cost, so you can't just write a model with better rules and then try to balance it by making it cost more. Instead armies need to be balanced based purely on ability. It feels like you're juggling less variables so it should be easier to achieve balance. Yes, that comes at the cost of variety, so Monsterpocalypse can never really have as many different distinct model options, but that's the advantage of a smaller game. And these days I personally find that the smaller the game the better. Guild Ball does this very well I feel. No points costs, but each team is always the same set up (1 captain, 1 mascot, 4 squaddies). Means teams are balanced around interactions within the team as opposed to a points cost. And designers only have to think about being buffed by 1 captain at a time for example. Cheers, Dave
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Post by borderprince on May 16, 2019 12:02:32 GMT
I do have to say that after reading this thread I actually kind of like the fact that the juggernaut doesn't have a straight upgrade. It's cheap yet irreplaceable in our lineup as far as outight power goes, and any increase in points needs to be justified, not with an increase in pow, but a need for utility. It's an interesting design choice, even if it's debatable as to whether it's a good design choice. It's quite fluffy - Khador's most generic jack is simple, strong and tough, with one small frill (the crit effect). It's getting more complex, rather than more powerful, which costs Khador more.
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Post by hocestbellum on May 16, 2019 12:21:36 GMT
I get the point about P+S16 for two initials. However, that is with two initials, and there aren't that many jacks which have two >P+S16 initial attacks in the budget range. The Hammersmith in Cygnar (which would be a really great jack in Khador) is the only one I can think of. It looks like it's a quality of attacks vs quantity issue. Add to that that the Marauder and Kodiak also bring other things to the table when dealing with heavies (Combo-Smite; smash and grab), and I'm not really bothered. I didn't necessarily mean 2 attacks of greater than P16 (although that is an interesting lack you've identified); I was talking more about things where you have a jack with a main attack at P>16, and then a second attack. So something like the Sphinx (P17 main weapon, P15 secondary) would fit. But 'diversity' is a good way to describe it. The Kodiak is vastly different to the Devastator, despite them both being 2xP16 jacks with an anti-infantry 'Aura' of sorts. In that context the Decimator/Destroyer and the Devastator/Demolisher could be said to be suffering from a lack of diversity more than anything; the Decimator and Demolisher are too similar to cheaper options.
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Post by michael on May 16, 2019 14:56:09 GMT
How do people feel about the grolar? I get the impression it doesn't perform up to its points value. The Grolar is absolutely fantastic when you can set it up to maximize its potential. It is a frightening monster when it works well. It is a great counterpunch jack or a great “Vlad1 ludicrous mode” missile. But you gotta have something cheap, like a Marauder or whatever, to take take the first punch, because it is very expensive and exactly zero more survivable than anything else on the Juggernaut chassis.
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Post by michael on May 16, 2019 15:07:08 GMT
* P.S. - Did you know that two charging Doom Reavers are basically guaranteed to kill any fresh warpwolf on the charge? This is an amazing fact I learned from a local Circle player. (Hopefully he doesn’t use this forum and doesn’t think I’m picking on him, if he sees this...) But this is a good example of the seriously overhyped “Khador is best at everything” mentality (from non-Khador players) that seemingly somehow pervades the WM community... I find that type of mentality prevalent in the Lower-Mid to Scrub Tier players :-P usually the ones that want to absolutely kill everything on the table with disregard to positioning, scenario, target priority, etc. etc. lol ... Eh, he’s a good kid. Just graduated from college, been playing for a few years, geared toward competitive. But he seriously overestimates Khador’s raw power. He used his 5 warpwolves (well, 4 + Ghetorix + Primal) to one-round four Juggernaut chassis under Kozlov’s feat and complained that my advice to do that was going to cost him the game. I was, like, seriously: I have one heavy left against your 5 warpwolves and miscellaneous Tharn ladies. I had to twist his arm to get him to follow my advice to destroy all my jacks. He countered with “well your (something like 5 remaining) Doom Reavers are going to kill all my beasts now” and I just had to shake my head and disagree. He had crappy rolls and he still broke my army’s back through a +2 ARM feat. Meanwhile I had to try to argue “that’s not how probability works” and that I’d be lucky to kill one warpwolf with my remaining Reavers. Eh. It’s that mythical Khador bogeyman for Circle players, I guess...
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Post by hocestbellum on May 16, 2019 15:47:26 GMT
Interestingly, my experience has been the opposite. A buddy of mine plays Circle, and he likes Kromac2 in Call of the Wild and Bradigus Bones as his lists. They hit damned hard... but not hard enough to trivially remove ARM22.
Buy or boost is telling me it's a 32% chance for a Primalled, warp-strength Stalker to take down a juggernaut, so 5 warpwolves taking on 4 is perfectly doable, but I'd be surprised if his rolls were that crappy.
ARM20 with 34 boxes baseline is just my favourite thing about Khador jacks, though. Every now and again my opponents will say "what do you mean I didn't take out any systems!?" and I get to feast on their misery.
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Post by michael on May 16, 2019 20:58:22 GMT
Interestingly, my experience has been the opposite. A buddy of mine plays Circle, and he likes Kromac2 in Call of the Wild and Bradigus Bones as his lists. They hit damned hard... but not hard enough to trivially remove ARM22. Buy or boost is telling me it's a 32% chance for a Primalled, warp-strength Stalker to take down a juggernaut, so 5 warpwolves taking on 4 is perfectly doable, but I'd be surprised if his rolls were that crappy. ARM20 with 34 boxes baseline is just my favourite thing about Khador jacks, though. Every now and again my opponents will say "what do you mean I didn't take out any systems!?" and I get to feast on their misery. It was Kromac1 and he nickel-and-dimed two of the heavies he could reach after blowing his stack on 4 Primals. But, still, he had pretty solid odds to do what he did, and was maybe (over the course of all the warpwolf attacks, so...17 bought attacks plus initials?) about 10-14 damage below “average”. Gut estimation.
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smoth
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
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Post by smoth on May 18, 2019 1:34:54 GMT
Trust me guys, I tried. I’ve had more than a few...spirited discussions ... with local players who insist (usually in a rage) that Khador has the best warjack P+S out there*, and they are always surprised to learn that we are basically scraping the bottom of the barrel once you look at the actual data. Back in mark 2 I was about to punch a whining legion player(who was spamming ravagors no less) who said my 2 juggies were op. I spoke to him with such a harshness that he never came back again. I really cannot stand all the whine. Our speed is 4.. any speed damping spells or feats, forest etc practically makes us imobile and we are ALWAYS hit. ALWAYS so any spell to debuff or take over our dudes will suceed. but but "vlad" yeah uh huh...
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Post by michael on May 18, 2019 1:37:29 GMT
On the bright side? Just remember folks, Juggernauts used to be MAT 5 and cost like 109 points!
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smoth
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
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Post by smoth on May 18, 2019 12:06:22 GMT
I am always happy withjugger, he is axe to face, one option, very khador. People think because he is common he is op, and it is stupid. He isn’t op, if anything it is like a boxer yelling “left” or body/head before swinging in a fight. The +1 pt increase was to shut up the whiners
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smoth
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
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Post by smoth on May 18, 2019 15:48:07 GMT
Am i the only one who stugglws with mobility vs power? At the present point cost kodiak is jugger’smain competition
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