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Post by sand20go on May 8, 2019 17:47:27 GMT
As noted above, without being able to threaten 13 you can be out threated by the Derp, Vulcan and kitted by the big bird, the Sled, the Railless and the Cricket. One thing you need to take into account is scenario. They can kite you for days but if they're not committing to scenario you're still winning. Sometimes the key to dealing with the big pieces is to deal with the smaller pieces first (ie. remove the cheap stuff that can contest). On the list itself: I must admit I'm not a huge fan. I played around with Butcher2 a bit a while ago (think I put some battle reports up). My list was fairly different to yours from what I remember. Stick that steelhead package with Strakhov2 and whack Last Stand on them instead  Cheers, Dave I clearly play in a different meta. Sure, kitting doesn't work if you don't bring scenario pieces. That is what Trancers, immortals, Bugs, Wolfriders, Halbies under Mosby are for. You put these into the zone or to use as ways to deny scoring. Meanwhile you score on your side and shot shit from range.
Here is just one example (sorry, sounding like Khador complianing). Did you know that Big Alyce can go score a flag from 15 inches away? That is more than _ANY_ of our solos allows can (the max is 14 for the drakhun). Think about that for a bit. You can play her WAY back, buff your caster, and then when you can finish out the game you simply change her, walk, jump and repo for the point.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578 
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Post by Juris on May 8, 2019 19:25:08 GMT
...Did you know that Big Alyce can go score a flag from 15 inches away? That is more than _ANY_ of our solos allows can (the max is 14 for the drakhun). Think about that for a bit...
It's actually 15.39 inches, because if you replace Little Alyce with Big Alyce you gain 10mm of distance in the direction of your choice. =P |
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on May 8, 2019 23:55:18 GMT
One thing you need to take into account is scenario. They can kite you for days but if they're not committing to scenario you're still winning. Sure, kitting doesn't work if you don't bring scenario pieces. That is what Trancers, immortals, Bugs, Wolfriders, Halbies under Mosby are for. You put these into the zone or to use as ways to deny scoring. Meanwhile you score on your side and shot shit from range. Huh, San, what exactly do you consider kitting anyway? The classic gamer definition is "I'll shoot you and move back such that no matter how far you walk I can always shoot your from safety", i.e., dragging you along like a Kite. Kitting implies the opponent is moving back as he is shooting. If he is moving back, than he is not contesting. I mean, just sitting in a zone, scoring, while being shot at from outside the zone is not really that big of a deal, IF you are scoring it. Which is why Sorscha_0 is so awezome, she makes our jacks threaten entire zones with quite a lot of our Casters. Sure, our jacks may not close the distance, but it doesn't matter if fighting is happening within zones or around flags. Huh, I just got a WoW Flashback "Fight AT THE FLAG YOU NEWBS!" |
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Post by sand20go on May 9, 2019 5:22:41 GMT
One thing you need to take into account is scenario. They can kite you for days but if they're not committing to scenario you're still winning. Sure, kitting doesn't work if you don't bring scenario pieces. That is what Trancers, immortals, Bugs, Wolfriders, Halbies under Mosby are for. You put these into the zone or to use as ways to deny scoring. Meanwhile you score on your side and shot shit from range. Huh, San, what exactly do you consider kitting anyway? The classic gamer definition is "I'll shoot you and move back such that no matter how far you walk I can always shoot your from safety", i.e., dragging you along like a Kite. Kitting implies the opponent is moving back as he is shooting. If he is moving back, than he is not contesting. I mean, just sitting in a zone, scoring, while being shot at from outside the zone is not really that big of a deal, IF you are scoring it. Which is why Sorscha_0 is so awezome, she makes our jacks threaten entire zones with quite a lot of our Casters. Sure, our jacks may not close the distance, but it doesn't matter if fighting is happening within zones or around flags. Huh, I ust got a WoW Flashback "Fight AT THE FLAG YOU NEWBS!" To me kitting means - yes - shooting and moving back WHILE you add in the additional necessary stuff to play the scenario "game" that makes warmachine something akin to complex chess rather than a wargame. In a recent game (mistakes were made on the other flank) Juris moved PRECISELY to within 10 inches of Ruin and Kodiak (my mistake on positioning to provide a way for him to get both) and sprayed twice. I think he shot big gun at Ruin as well. Then he repoed back to precisely a bit more than 12 inches (outside of Kodiak and inside or Ruin). did it with the other Railess as well. He then put a Trancer to avoid getting scored on his turn He also had rusted the jacks with Hutchuck and then repoed back so that if a jack went to get Hutchuck it would either be out of Butcher's control or butcher would be too far forward and able to be killed by DBR and Railess. Pass turn. Now then. Here are the choices. Yes. I could GO kill the trancer and score a point . Have to use the Kodiak and vent steam so I don't get pushed back and further out of position. But the railless are set up to do precisely the same thing again NEXT turn and, under feat, have a good chance of taking out one or both jacks. I can't get the Kodiak into anything and Ruin, only fully loaded and with SOD has a chance to get Railless. So that is what I mean by kitting. It isn't classic WoW ranged where you shoot and back up all over the field till your mindless opponent is dead. That just loses on scenario. It is doing that while ALSO feeding in high quality/low point contesting pieces like the trancer or tarpits like the Halbs. You keep the really good stuff alive and the fodder gets killed - which you don't care about because your ranged is safe. And you know that is sorta our meta. Because people learn....and they have seen that it is effective. |
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on May 9, 2019 8:54:55 GMT
FYI Fenris and Markov can get to flags 16" away from them The scenario you described is basically exactly what I was meaning by killing the small things. Accept the attacks from the railless, do what you need to do to kill the trancer, score a point. Layer your jacks (send in kodiak to kill trancer, keep Ruin back a bit). Next turn, you loose stuff, maybe another small thing comes into the zone to contest and the railless stays back. Now you repeat due to layering your jacks, kill the small thing again and score again. Now you said the feat was used to take out the initial kodiak, so now they have to deal with your remaining jacks without feat. You might live then. Now you're 2pts up on scenario and that's only considering one scenario element. Take enough stuff and you can possibly repeat this in other places. That's obviously massively simplified though. Roughly I'd go with the kodiak for the first kill and have a couple other jacks behind. Opponent now has to either massively focus on the kodiak without feat, or feat to remove it more easily. If not feat it means more of the rest of your army is fine, if feat it means your next two jacks are happier. Because next turn both other heavies move up together, clear the zone again and make life difficult from there. Also, was thinking: do you have many forests in your games? Shouldn't be relied upon, but these can be a pain for huge bases since you can see them and they can't see you. Anyway, that's just some random rambling from me Cheers, Dave |
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on May 10, 2019 22:30:47 GMT
FYI Fenris and Markov can get to flags 16" away from them The scenario you described is basically exactly what I was meaning by killing the small things. Accept the attacks from the railless, do what you need to do to kill the trancer, score a point. Layer your jacks (send in kodiak to kill trancer, keep Ruin back a bit). Next turn, you loose stuff, maybe another small thing comes into the zone to contest and the railless stays back. Now you repeat due to layering your jacks, kill the small thing again and score again. Now you said the feat was used to take out the initial kodiak, so now they have to deal with your remaining jacks without feat. You might live then. Now you're 2pts up on scenario and that's only considering one scenario element. Take enough stuff and you can possibly repeat this in other places. That's obviously massively simplified though. Roughly I'd go with the kodiak for the first kill and have a couple other jacks behind. Opponent now has to either massively focus on the kodiak without feat, or feat to remove it more easily. If not feat it means more of the rest of your army is fine, if feat it means your next two jacks are happier. Because next turn both other heavies move up together, clear the zone again and make life difficult from there. Also, was thinking: do you have many forests in your games? Shouldn't be relied upon, but these can be a pain for huge bases since you can see them and they can't see you. Anyway, that's just some random rambling from me Cheers, Dave I'm pretty sure there was a big forest in the middle of the table in both of the games that we recently played. I stuck my Toro and Suppressor behind the woods, with access to pathfinder and 7" walks, and basically made him stay away from the woods. Roughly speaking, the problem with the strategy that you posted above is that his Butcher list will run out of contesting pieces before the Syvestro list, and that I think you are underestimating the turn by turn output of the Railless Interceptors. If you apply Rust, you're talking about up to 2 POW16's, 1 POW14 (that lights you on fire), and a POW17, for each Railless. That's 11 damage per Railless on average (more if you feat). That means you get 22 damage to a Khador jack. Keep in mind that, depending upon board positioning, you can double-dip some of those sprays onto more than one model. Add in a DBR gunshot or 2 (another 3 or 6 damage per turn), and you're looking at a maximum lifespan of 1.5 turns per warjack. (Additional food for thought: with Rust and feat, 2 Railless unloading their full salvo of guns have 50% chance to kill a Khador Jack). In short, you can afford to sit there and get shot at for maximum of 2 turns before your losses get too great to be able to effectively fight back. That's just from Railless shooting. Meanwhile Halberdiers are fighting their way up the table, etc. The upshot of everything above is that my conclusion for Sand20go was that you can't play a waiting game with Butcher in this MU. You need to be prepared to accept heavy losses, and your gameplan should involve Butcher (and the rest of your army) being in position to retaliate immediately and with overwhelming force. If you can't pull that off, you're probably going to lose. This is a positioning based skillset, and requires practice. |
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