gupp
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by gupp on Apr 28, 2019 18:54:29 GMT
Is theme free worth it sometimes? I’m thinking of just running a “best of” mishmash and seeing how it goes... maybe it’ll just fill in the gaps?
What’s your experience trying to just run “anything”?
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Apr 28, 2019 22:53:43 GMT
My dad plays Legion, and has found a few lists (not many) that are good enough to play out of theme. I think it's mostly because of how rockin Legion's Chracter Warbeasts are. I also know that minions had at one point a few lists that ran out of theme, but I think that changed with Will Work for Food. So long story short, it's not TOTALLY un-doable... but it's the exception rather than the rule. Most the time, you should be building in theme.
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Post by Charistoph on Apr 28, 2019 23:41:52 GMT
I can tell you that playing Cephalyx or Skorne enslaved 'Beasts is impossible without Themes.
As for worth it? It REALLY depends on how you defined "worth it". Normally, most people build to allow for at least 2-3 pointless purchases to work from. For some, that's just a couple solos, for others, that's some rather expensive support pieces. If you like playing 12 points under your opponent, than it can worth it. But of course, it depends on what type of puzzle you are trying to accomplish.
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psyllus
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by psyllus on Apr 29, 2019 1:51:10 GMT
The benefits of going out of theme differ by faction. It mostly comes down to, "What units/solos/jacks/beasts can I not take together in any theme?" For Ret, there are quite a few (mixing house beaty-stompy-jacks with house amazing-jack-support). For Mercs, it's, um, Magnus2 and Gallant for DEF 15 with Dodge? Much of Merc stuff requires a theme to take in the first place.
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Post by Charistoph on Apr 29, 2019 3:44:56 GMT
Much of Merc stuff requires a theme to take in the first place. Not much, just the non-partisan Cephalyx stuff.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Apr 29, 2019 7:27:20 GMT
I find that, whenever I try to build a list out of them, I run out of points to get the support I want anyway. So then I make some minor alterations, basically take out 1 unit or solo and squeeze it in theme anyway.
Definitely not impossible, but you need to get quite a bit of use out of the specialist models to offset the 15-point swing as well as the theme benefits.
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Post by anderfreak on Apr 29, 2019 18:02:05 GMT
My dad plays Legion, and has found a few lists (not many) that are good enough to play out of theme. I think it's mostly because of how rockin Legion's Chracter Warbeasts are. I also know that minions had at one point a few lists that ran out of theme, but I think that changed with Will Work for Food. So long story short, it's not TOTALLY un-doable... but it's the exception rather than the rule. Most the time, you should be building in theme. There are still a few minions lists I'll run out of theme. Most notably any time I want to run Farrow Brigands, because the support models you miss out on in the thornfall theme are real ball busters. Thornfall and blindwater both feel awful to play in to be honest. I really want them to expand the unit choices for WWFF to make it more similar to the irregulars theme in mercs. Midas desperately wants to see the table again...
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Post by sand20go on Apr 29, 2019 20:48:03 GMT
I think that there is a way to do this - especially as things increasingly grow more diverse on the mercs side and we add models that are SUPPOSED to be in theme but which are pretty f'ing uber out of it. For Khador this largely would seem to be leveraging Koldun Lords non WOlves lists since we have lacked, prior to them, a reliable armor debuff.
Heck - you could make a strong argument that because of how they work they could be a solid add to the otherwise lack luster Jaws theme - accepting the loss of the free models for access to no shooting/debuff and possibly the additional empower options if you also had a Forgeseer.
In broader terms that is what I would be looking at - archetypal lackluster themes that really don't currently give you that much an advantage and then "out of theme" solos/units which would syngerize across themes.
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psyllus
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by psyllus on Apr 29, 2019 23:27:22 GMT
Much of Merc stuff requires a theme to take in the first place. Not much, just the non-partisan Cephalyx stuff. I'll rephrase: Due to multiple themes that rely on (or at least allow) models from Cygnar, PoM, Crucible Guard, and Cryx (and soon Khador), a significant number of models owned by Merc players may be unplayable outside of theme.
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Post by Charistoph on Apr 29, 2019 23:44:41 GMT
Not much, just the non-partisan Cephalyx stuff. I'll rephrase: Due to multiple themes that rely on (or at least allow) models from Cygnar, PoM, Crucible Guard, and Cryx (and soon Khador), a significant number of models owned by Merc players may be unplayable outside of theme. That is better. While it is NICE to take all that stuff in Themes, they are no more Merc stuff than a Road Hog or Blackhide Wrastler is Skorne stuff.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Apr 29, 2019 23:54:13 GMT
I occasionally like using Thyra with both Daughters (for early anti-infantry hit) and Knights Exemplar (for 2nd way, killing heavies), which no theme allows. That said, I haven't tried it in some time because you are effectively playing somewhere between 3 and 20 pts down.
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Post by challenger on Apr 30, 2019 0:35:06 GMT
being 15-20pts down is so brutal. Even though freebies arent always worth their cost, at the end of the day more stuff = more stuff
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Apr 30, 2019 7:45:50 GMT
Is theme free worth it sometimes? I’m thinking of just running a “best of” mishmash and seeing how it goes... maybe it’ll just fill in the gaps? What’s your experience trying to just run “anything”? Choosing to go out of theme probabaly isn't to "just run anything". More often then not you're looking for a synergy that isn't available in a theme, so out of theme lists are most likely really specific. Example are the Twins with Blighty, raptors and the gang, and Rhyas on her own who also likes out of theme lists because she likes so many different things (and so many things like her). She's probably best out of theme too. Might have changed with Primal Terrors though, I don't know. It's been a while since I've looked at her.
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Post by hocestbellum on Apr 30, 2019 9:55:34 GMT
I still do, from time to time. There's a lot of stuff that is just damn solid regardless of theme benefits in Khador; MoW Shocktroopers, Winter Guard, Strike Tankers... Probably Doom Reavers now with the points drop.
But it's harder to justify these days. Armoured Corps is well rounded enough that you can approximate anything except magic weapons in-theme, and the benefits are very handy. And whereas you might have been playing down 12 points before, that's crept up and up so 18-20 points down is not uncommon.
I wish they'd just standardise the theme freebies to 'X points of Y gives you 5 extra army points' or something simple. The current system is really inflexible, and the free-points arms-race is more than a little annoying.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Apr 30, 2019 11:09:45 GMT
I wish they'd just standardise the theme freebies to 'X points of Y gives you 5 extra army points' or something simple. The current system is really inflexible, and the free-points arms-race is more than a little annoying. Agreed, it would essentially formalize the game to 85-90 points.
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