A-Mo
Junior Strategist
Posts: 204
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Post by A-Mo on Apr 23, 2019 19:49:22 GMT
It's hard to tell via posts who actually believes this is a "negative/cash grab" scheme and who's just poking fun at this point, hahaha.
Regardless, I don't understand the "cash grab, booooo hisss" mentality. I think mixing stuff up like this is awesome for the collectors who have the majority of a faction, and now has this whole new avenue to explore. Are there really people out that that think along the lines of "Great, I have/want *insert faction*, but now I also HAVE to buy a bunch of *insert other faction* crap! Thanks a lot PP!"
I would equate a negative cash grab to something like updating sculpts for models, and then banning the old version from organized play. Something where it's a requirement, and not an option to spend more money on PP's product.
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Apr 23, 2019 21:33:15 GMT
I think this the money grab mentality has roots in the fact that it's a "competitive" game, and that to remain competitive, you are either on the leading edge, the wave of new stuff if you will, or you are under it.
I think this is 100% an attempt to just sell models. But, and here's the crazy thing, EVERYTHING any game company does is an attempt to get you to buy more stuff. For as negative as I am with PP on so many things, I don't fault them for this. they have a product, and they are looking for ways to make that product usable, relevant, and most importantly, movable, especially products that have been just, for the lack of a few minor exceptions, complete garbage and never played.
Where I will have exception is if these new themes are somehow so bat shit crazy powerful that they become the only way to play, in that case, then my problem isn't with them trying to sell stuff, my problem is with their balancing of the game.
That shouldn't come as a shock to anyone, the balance of the game has been in question now for a bit, and continues in many people's eyes, to get just a bit crazier with every CID.
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A-Mo
Junior Strategist
Posts: 204
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Post by A-Mo on Apr 23, 2019 23:26:05 GMT
Shiver, appreciate the response.
I guess I disagree with that line of thinking. I agree there is a fair amount of chasing the curve, but some of that is self inflicted. Sure, there are some releases that really shake up the meta, but it doesn't mean you have to go out and buy a whole new army or drop a bunch of cash. Sometimes just switching up a solo or caster can make a huge difference.
You may find yourself at the bottom of the scrap heap from time to time, but things seem like they work themselves out. Something gets nerfed, something gets buffed, a turd get polished in an unexpected way. Who knows.
Regarding the "100% to sell models part". Do you not believe there are people at PP that are injecting some of their passion into the rules? If PP were going full on Profiteer Press, I'd expect much worse changes to the game. Old GW style(maybe currently as well for all I know).
I agree that there are some balance issues, but I don't think it's correct that only the latest CID releases can be played competitively. Still a lot of the old stuff that has a home in the competitive scene.
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Post by mcdermott on Apr 23, 2019 23:47:27 GMT
Shiver, appreciate the response. I guess I disagree with that line of thinking. I agree there is a fair amount of chasing the curve, but some of that is self inflicted. Sure, there are some releases that really shake up the meta, but it doesn't mean you have to go out and buy a whole new army or drop a bunch of cash. Sometimes just switching up a solo or caster can make a huge difference. You may find yourself at the bottom of the scrap heap from time to time, but things seem like they work themselves out. Something gets nerfed, something gets buffed, a turd get polished in an unexpected way. Who knows. Regarding the "100% to sell models part". Do you not believe there are people at PP that are injecting some of their passion into the rules? If PP were going full on Profiteer Press, I'd expect much worse changes to the game. Old GW style(maybe currently as well for all I know). I agree that there are some balance issues, but I don't think it's correct that only the latest CID releases can be played competitively. Still a lot of the old stuff that has a home in the competitive scene. People have been finding the balance of the game in question since its inception.
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Post by jonnyboy on Apr 24, 2019 12:50:21 GMT
Flip side, if this game is competitive, if PP is unbalancing the game to sell new models, people will bail and bail fast. Creating OP new models is quite obvious and disrupts the competitive nature, driving people away. I bet PP is smart and their goal is not purely to sell new CID hotness based on the fact they are better than any existing models.
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Post by challenger on Apr 24, 2019 13:28:22 GMT
They are a company it not a defense for terrible money grubbing decisions. Thats a false dichotomy. I'd brush up on your logical fallacies. Then I'd brush up on general business sense. Because you're wrong on both counts. it is in fact a bad business sense to sacrifice long term enjoyment and fun of the game of users in exchange for short term cash. but PPs been going down that road for years now so i guess they need to suck whats left up while they circle the drain
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Post by Havock on Apr 24, 2019 14:04:01 GMT
It would be if it sucked, these new theme forces look fun and interesting. Cross faction stuff is not new; Magnus2 had a theme in mk2 which included sword knights, Sloane had Widowmakers, Skorne has a "Minion force". If it's well thought out -and these seem to be-, it doesn't need to be "money grubbing bad decisions killing the game".
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bacon
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by bacon on Apr 24, 2019 16:44:46 GMT
It's not even new this edition. Skorne had Morg 2's "hit squad" and Rasheth's "chain gang" theme forces in mk 2.
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Post by mcdermott on Apr 24, 2019 19:39:33 GMT
Flip side, if this game is competitive, if PP is unbalancing the game to sell new models, people will bail and bail fast. Creating OP new models is quite obvious and disrupts the competitive nature, driving people away. I bet PP is smart and their goal is not purely to sell new CID hotness based on the fact they are better than any existing models. Game communities have never actually been very good at determining balance, and often confuse balance for fun. The only thing the game needs to be is fun. People rarely find perfect balance as fun as they would like because the cold truth is that in a perfectly balanced scenario how good you actually are at a game shines through, and most people view themselves as better at a game than they actually are.
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Post by jonnyboy on Apr 24, 2019 20:04:41 GMT
Flip side, if this game is competitive, if PP is unbalancing the game to sell new models, people will bail and bail fast. Creating OP new models is quite obvious and disrupts the competitive nature, driving people away. I bet PP is smart and their goal is not purely to sell new CID hotness based on the fact they are better than any existing models. Game communities have never actually been very good at determining balance, and often confuse balance for fun. The only thing the game needs to be is fun. People rarely find perfect balance as fun as they would like because the cold truth is that in a perfectly balanced scenario how good you actually are at a game shines through, and most people view themselves as better at a game than they actually are. I can agree most if not all people have inflated views of their playing ability. But in a game where there are multiple factions and not everyone playing the same factions i get the feeling that it is a bit easier to see the state of balance. Tharn is a hot topic, i think many have come to the belief that only a couple models could use a re-tuning. For the most part the theme isnt egregious.
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Post by Charistoph on Apr 24, 2019 20:21:03 GMT
Flip side, if this game is competitive, if PP is unbalancing the game to sell new models, people will bail and bail fast. Creating OP new models is quite obvious and disrupts the competitive nature, driving people away. I bet PP is smart and their goal is not purely to sell new CID hotness based on the fact they are better than any existing models. Game communities have never actually been very good at determining balance, and often confuse balance for fun. The only thing the game needs to be is fun. People rarely find perfect balance as fun as they would like because the cold truth is that in a perfectly balanced scenario how good you actually are at a game shines through, and most people view themselves as better at a game than they actually are. Fun is what makes games go 'round. Being an Extremeroller keeps general fun out for hard-stomping (which is fun for some). Yet, Warhammer has never been considered balanced, focused more on "fun" rules than balance, and it has been hard for their metas to die to the extremely competitive.
That being said, you can be an expert list-builder and positioner playing a perfectly balanced scenario, but if you roll more snake eyes than a cobra pun convention, it would be hard to win.
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Post by mcdermott on Apr 24, 2019 22:37:35 GMT
Game communities have never actually been very good at determining balance, and often confuse balance for fun. The only thing the game needs to be is fun. People rarely find perfect balance as fun as they would like because the cold truth is that in a perfectly balanced scenario how good you actually are at a game shines through, and most people view themselves as better at a game than they actually are. I can agree most if not all people have inflated views of their playing ability. But in a game where there are multiple factions and not everyone playing the same factions i get the feeling that it is a bit easier to see the state of balance. Tharn is a hot topic, i think many have come to the belief that only a couple models could use a re-tuning. For the most part the theme isnt egregious. I disagree here, the issue with multifaction games and balance is that whichever faction the best players gravitate to are the ones the community are going to view as imbalanced. Its also completely possible that the level of imbalance is well within ok levels but because the extremerollers go to it and are better players the level of imbalance is exaggerated in the eyes of the community. Faction loyalty kills games.
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Apr 25, 2019 11:12:47 GMT
I can agree most if not all people have inflated views of their playing ability. But in a game where there are multiple factions and not everyone playing the same factions i get the feeling that it is a bit easier to see the state of balance. Tharn is a hot topic, i think many have come to the belief that only a couple models could use a re-tuning. For the most part the theme isnt egregious. I disagree here, the issue with multifaction games and balance is that whichever faction the best players gravitate to are the ones the community are going to view as imbalanced. Its also completely possible that the level of imbalance is well within ok levels but because the extremerollers go to it and are better players the level of imbalance is exaggerated in the eyes of the community. Faction loyalty kills games. or the most competitive players play the best stuff...
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Post by Charistoph on Apr 25, 2019 14:40:31 GMT
Faction loyalty kills games. Hasn't killed Warhammer yet.
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Post by jagius021 on Apr 25, 2019 15:18:50 GMT
Every time a new model or a CID for a model comes out, someone screams "this is the end!" And ya know, the game is still alive. This is a good move for pp because it shows how the story affects the gameplay, and how this can open more doors in the future. There's a progression that's been "khador hates cygnar!" To "khador might look the other direction at cygnar" to "khador very begrudgingly working with cygnar" to now (at least what I have seen, don't have all the fluff yet in my hands) "khador works with cygnar to try to save the world".
This allows other things to occur in game without limiting design space. This allows groups to evolve and different styles to exist. Alliances can form and break, identities can diverge. It's a good thing. Look at Warhammer and magic. Those games change and evolve and stay healthy. And all along the way people have complained.
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