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Post by deathbymelancholy on Apr 11, 2019 16:54:49 GMT
I get it. Retribution is on a high, Circle is god-tier, Menoth is a quiet super-power. So maybe we've lost players there, but even then I try to make lists and I'm kind of like...... Are we a mid-tier until the next CID we get, or am I really missing some gem? Madrak1 just can't even against Circle, Borka2 seems to struggle, Kolgrima is OK these days, but I don't see her being a monster like she was.
I'm currently running Madrak2 and Grissel2 and having a good time generally, but I certainly wouldn't expect to win any kind of quality tournament.
Just sounding the waters to see where people think we stand from a popularity/power standpoint.
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Apr 11, 2019 19:50:02 GMT
Yeah Trollbloods is just bad currently imo. Trolls are trolls you know, like they allways have been: Predictable, easy to play against. No tricks, doesn't ask OR answer any questions in the meta. Not many impressive feats or spells, low threat ranges, no amazing beasts or units, expensive stuff, support bloat and not very resilient - even with the stone! At some point they were a solid tough brick, hard to get rid of - but now? I don't know man.. I've played SotN Kolgrima/Madrak1 for 5 months now and got tired of it. So now I play the Madrak2 toughaloe netlist but not a big fan. Not a lot usage of his feat in my meta and i really despise the Krielstone these days.. Feels like i play points down in every match. Currently my "gem" is Grim2 KC. Feat, Mortality, Warwagon, Sluggers. Go! Sorry for the negativity man, I'm just being frank. 1,5 years since our last CID/Northkin release and not a new one in sight makes me bitter. So much of the faction needs some help and can't match up against any of the latest powercreep CID spits out. Maybe the Dhunia archon will be a godsend!?
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Post by profdikweed on Apr 11, 2019 23:36:55 GMT
I wouldnt count on the Dhunian archon boosting us too much. Its slated as a support piece and we already have issues with support bloat due to stone unit.
Even if it is strong, its going to be tough to find 8/9 pts to fit it in a list. And if its really good, I see it as boosting circle further than they already are rather than bringing us up to where they are.
If we are able to take it as a card, it still has to contest with ither wuality cards ehich are hard to find points for if we dont get them for free: runebearwr, fellcaller and skadi/valka
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Post by mydnight on Apr 12, 2019 0:34:18 GMT
I wouldnt count on the Dhunian archon boosting us too much. Its slated as a support piece and we already have issues with support bloat due to stone unit. Even if it is strong, its going to be tough to find 8/9 pts to fit it in a list. And if its really good, I see it as boosting circle further than they already are rather than bringing us up to where they are. If we are able to take it as a card, it still has to contest with ither wuality cards ehich are hard to find points for if we dont get them for free: runebearwr, fellcaller and skadi/valka It is likely to be partisan with trolls though, so will gain +2 arm from the stone at least
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jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274
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Post by jarrow on Apr 12, 2019 5:21:03 GMT
It is true that trolls are not shiny new toy they were years ago and many good players play now their new shiny armies like skorne or circle or crusible guard. But what I have seen, players who play trolls are not innovative. They do not adapt to meta and they do not think outside the box. Trolls are really versatile army but we don't have one ultimate answer to all (most) problems like many other factions have. Trolls have to take casters and units that were not suitable for meta year a go back to desk and think what suits current meta. Playing same Kolgrima SotN / Maddrak1 BoH 5 moths is not suitable for current warmachine. Current warmachine needs adaptation to new releases and analyzing meta changes. Net lists might be good some time but they also run out of timeline.
And what comes to Dhunia Archon, I hope we can get it free on power of dhunia to boost that theme a bit.
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Post by dickovdk on Apr 12, 2019 7:50:45 GMT
while I do not disagree that troll players aren't stuck with the same list over and over again, I honestly do not feel its a troll thing but Warmachine issue in general. People sit around and wait for 1 of 2 things - some "named" dude to come up with the answer to the meta or for the next CID that over-boost the new models. I don't feel Troll players are not all that different from any other.
Think out of the box: True always a good thing and something I love to do - but that also mean accepting that your weekly games are loosing experiences because the rest of the "bunch" play the new shining (boosted) cid models ONLY. In our local meta all we see on the table are a the standard netlists (latest hotness) with minor tweeks. That leaves in my opinion two choices, either loose hard for a long time, or try to stick to the few good models we have in TB (being stuck in the box)
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Post by beardmonk on Apr 12, 2019 8:01:01 GMT
Trolls are not low power. We just don't have anything new compared to other factions. Our last CiD was a year or so with SoTN. But we are not actually bad, I still feel like I have a lot to choose from and ideas to try. I'm actually quite happy with this as when I get my toys out the box I know they haven't changed. my opponents however......
What we are lacking is a somebody playing them at a high level and publically trying to innovate lists. A champion for the faction. A Trollblood Champion......
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Apr 12, 2019 8:52:23 GMT
My personal view is that many of the unique aspects of Trollblood play have largely been negated (initially) by rule changes (transition to MK3) and then by the evolution of other factions over the last three years. Unique Trollblood look, but not mechanics, so why not try a different faction, with different or better tools?
Examples: Other factions do Steady/Tough better than trolls (or with better models/themes). Tharn? The spread of Grievous Wounds is a big kick in the teeth to our warriors' AND warbeasts' raison d'etre, the ability to survive to retaliate. Negating Tough, regen, snacking, whelp eating, warlock/DK healing with a single ability creates an awful 'paid for useless abilities' feel. Self-regen. TBs got none. Legion cav, Tharn, GatorMen heal when hit. The spread of opposing No KD/No stationary abilities negate trolls 'schtick' of using those game states to improve our models' ability to hit. Making it a struggle to include lower MAT/RAT models in our arsenal.
Is there something, ability/tactic, that can still be said to be Trollblood specific? Comedic models? Don't get me wrong, I still love my Trollbloods, but currently they seem to be lacking that spark that made them compelling for me to play throughout all of MK1 and 2. And other factions I own seem to have a bit more of that thrill right now.
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Apr 12, 2019 9:14:29 GMT
+1 joedj I completely agree! Waow beardmonk I gotta ask: Don't you have any Circle, Skorne, Menoth or CG players in your meta? If yes, do you win against them? If yes, which lists do you play?? I'm very curious Maybe there are no high level tournament troll players, because there simply is no dark horse/hidden gold to exploit in the faction currently.
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Post by beardmonk on Apr 12, 2019 11:20:30 GMT
Waow beardmonk I gotta ask: Don't you have any Circle, Skorne, Menoth or CG players in your meta? If yes, do you win against them? If yes, which lists do you play?? I'm very curious I play my WM/H in 2 places. One being what you would call "basement" with a group of friends who, while building the best lists they can etc have no interest in playing outside our little group, doing local tournaments etc. We do our best to stay on top of things but you wont find us immediately investing in the latest meta changing or breaking lists. We have Trolls, Circle, Skorne, Grymkin and CoC. We have a player who plays Khador but he has not played in some time and is pretty much "out" of the game for now at least. In this environment i have played Madrak1, Doomy1, Gunny, Grissel1 (my home girl) Horgle2, Borka2 and Ragnor. The only list that im still trying to get me head around is the new Circle. And in my circle playing friend defence, he hasnt "bought into" the new list, he had it all from Mk2 and has been suffering throughout most of Mk3 up till this point. I have played into Menoth only twice in my whole time playing WM/H. I have never seen CG on the table. I also play at a games afternoon in London with some very very good players. I get there once or twice a month dependent on life etc. There we have all factions pretty much although Circle, Minions and Legion are quite prevalent. There i find its more my lack of skill that loses me the game. Unless I pick the wrong list for a match up. In which case its still my lack of high level experience. But I have won quite a few games down there against the other mid level players. Against Circle, Khador and CoC mostly.
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Apr 12, 2019 11:45:54 GMT
So we seem to be somewhat in agreement that it's a combination of factors, which I sort of suspected. Circle really are my Kryptonite at the moment (I realize I'm not alone). They seem to shut down every ability I try to leverage and can see through forests. I still play the local Circle guy, Iona guy, but I have no expectation of victory and only the most marginal expectation of a competitive game. But again, against most of the field I still have fun and can get wins. I've always thought tough was a garbage mechanic and never take it into consideration in my plans for a turn, which serves me well now when we basically don't have it for all the work arounds out there. I've come to accept the stone as being the tax I pay to play the faction, and that's my sum total feelings on that. Where I think we lose out is in solo choices and viable themes, which are two brutal areas to be lacking in. Fellcallers are "fine, Valka is, I don't even know, I love his Viking look and his abilities aren't bad, but he seems lackluster these days; I would give up half his rules for Overtake. Runebearer (more support), Elders (more support) Skaldi, meh, champs just aren't that great right now. I take a minion solo as often as I do a Troll one in most lists. As far as innovation, its hard, that's why factions have stand out representatives that can do it. I play around with our full roster of Warlocks, but freely admit to not being good enough to build the next great list out of the hodgepodge we have.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Apr 12, 2019 13:50:48 GMT
So, I feel like I kind of have the same in Cryx (ironic I know). A lot of people seem to have dropped the faction and moved on to greener pastures, but I feel like the the faction as a whole still has a lot of game into most of the field, if you adapt.
Problem is that that is of course easier said than done. Having a CID gives you something to focus on: a new caster and new models that you want to try out and that have probably been tuned to provide some kind of answer into the current meta. That doesn't mean that those options aren't already there though; I feel like Cryx has options into everything, but themes as a whole have pretty clearly defined strengths and weaknesses. Getting a CID also has the advantage of more people getting excited and jumping onto the band wagon, which gives you a larger "think tank" to draw inspiration from. This makes it difficult to have an "all comers" pairing, especially if you don't want to end up in a list chicken situation. That's probably largely the same for Trollbloods; I feel like there are many great lists to be had in Trollbloods, but coming up with pairing that sufficiently covers the field, that could be hard and it's not easy to find new solutions by yourself. Even if you're not a "net lister", those lists can still give inspiration and it's difficult to come up with something without having someone to bounce ideas off of (even if that "someone" is just a similar list), but not impossible.
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skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206
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Post by skurkious on Apr 12, 2019 16:22:32 GMT
Gamingdevil I feel your pain. My 3 main factions(Trollbloods, Cygnar, Cryx) are all in the same boat. People are just not excited about them and that makes it easier to get down on them. I do not envy the people at PP trying to keep everyone happy. I've been diving into Cryx for the past 3 months and its been pretty rough. All the new shinies have so much RFP and "I steal all your souls/corpses" or "I don't have any souls/corpses" that I can't play the models I wanted to(Revenants/Thralls/Banes). So yes, when you negate healing and tough, I totally get why troll players are down right now. BUT even though I don't get to "do what I want" in games by stacking souls or getting a bunch of tough rolls, I still find if I honestly look back at the games, I usually still lose because I didn't play what I had to its full potential. So I honestly think that Trolls/Cryx/Cygnar can win with new innovative lists if they just put the time in on them as dickovdk mentioned. That said, it is definitely time for them to come around and give these factions a lift. Feels like nothing but Skorne and Circle for faaaaaaar to long! ;-)
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Apr 14, 2019 7:50:06 GMT
You guys are losing to the "the new shiny" maily because it's new, not because it's shiny. If you run into something you haven't played against means you will lose period. But they know your stuff now. They can handle the bears, they won't fall for a kolgrimma spray assassination anymore. You just have to adapt and that is hard work. You must know how the "enemy" works to best it. If you all are really that tired, jump faction. Probably best would be borrowing or proxing. Then you can see how suddenly that grass is not so green and how Legion is already not "broken" anymore (0 nerfs) and how Tharn also will be beatable after adapting in a few weeks.
I kind of miss Trollock here, he was shepherding all the salt pretty well with innovative list and good analysis.
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Post by dickovdk on Apr 14, 2019 10:15:49 GMT
You guys are losing to the "the new shiny" maily because it's new, not because it's shiny. If you run into something you haven't played against means you will lose period. But they know your stuff now. They can handle the bears, they won't fall for a kolgrimma spray assassination anymore. You just have to adapt and that is hard work. You must know how the "enemy" works to best it. If you all are really that tired, jump faction. Probably best would be borrowing or proxing. Then you can see how suddenly that grass is not so green and how Legion is already not "broken" anymore (0 nerfs) and how Tharn also will be beatable after adapting in a few weeks. I kind of miss Trollock here, he was shepherding all the salt pretty well with innovative list and good analysis. While I disagree with you Snoozer regarding that stuff just need to adept, CID have changed that quite a lot, now a days basically what goes thru CID come out boosted and better equiped for handling the last "power trip", but having said that I do try none the less to adept. I tried playing Long Riders (without Madrak2), they just come up short power wise, I tried them without tactician from Maddy1 and again that made it even harder to run 10 large "one punch" models This made me look at what I needed and ended up with a Storm list - which more or less was Cris Dancocks Bearka version - I couldn't find anything that used the tools better in Storm. With that list I have a list I have tried with Calandra, 2x Bomber, 2x War Wagons (old elder of course) that should cover the holes left in Storm. But then running into healing monsters (primal/tharn) then I come up short again - however I do need a million more games with that pairing to see if it fits what I want - but as mentioned in another thread this just boils down to loosing a bunch a games while testing and having to restart all that when next CID cycle overboost something. For TB I feel storm should be our "first" list (hey only one from CID anyways) and then we need to have something secondary/odd to handle the holes. Will that make us predictable sure but TB always been like that anyways
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