luckgod84
Junior Strategist
Cygnar blogger
Posts: 163
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Post by luckgod84 on Apr 11, 2019 16:11:29 GMT
Well in Wrath Blaize was Cygnars caster release so I disagree with that personally. Just because in mk3 they decided to give her a merc card doesnt change the fact she had a cygnar card originally
It should be a merc and cygnar theme
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Post by gobber on Apr 11, 2019 16:49:38 GMT
The thamarite half makes no sense in Cygnar though so full blending ala army of the old faith would make less sense (Cygnaran Fiona seems wrong, and Khadoran Morrowans arguably would have as much claim to the theme). And let's not forget that Blaize's Cygnaran nationalism is depicted in Wrath as unusual within the Sancteum, which is loathe to piss off its Khadoran followers. When they joined the Cygnar-Khador war they were careful to ensure their forces wouldn't actually be deployed to the Khadoran front and were sent off to defend the border with Cryx instead. Also, only the Sancteum's army joined; the Order of Illumination is politically independent enough that it did not.
The Sancteum seems even less likely to subordinate its interests to Cygnar now that Julius is king and Cygnar's playing around with war crimes and torture (there are downsides to Magnus being back in the army...). I would not be surprised to see the Order of Illumination as a future release cycle, which could be an opportunity to provide Cygnar with its own more limited Morrowan infantry focused theme (maybe helping sword knights as well?) which strikes me as a better way to handle it than hybridizing the morrowan/thamarite one.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Apr 11, 2019 19:51:32 GMT
I would actually have preffered (or maybe that is still on the way after all) a Strangelight mini fraction, were all these models can be partisan of. But will these campaign themes and models actually be in steamroller? Or will they be kind of "theme only?" If i remember correct PP have stated earlier that the new models and themes will be allowed also outside the new campaign.
Let's see how that turns out then. I am kind of worried about that. But maybe for no reason PP is moving WmH in the right direction so far.
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Post by cygnarstronk on Apr 13, 2019 11:58:23 GMT
They are clearly biased and want us to lose. We needed a CID, badly, nearly all of our stuff is overcosted startgin with a colossal much weaker than others at 39 points, mediocre infantry and warjacks, out dated upkeep buffs, lack of blessed/dispel and much more. Instead, we get a merc theme. Stuff like this makes me want to drop the game, Idon't have the money for a second faction.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Apr 13, 2019 16:05:02 GMT
Obviously I suppose all that nerfing happend because Cygnar was well and balanced .... On a serious note tough, are you actually putting stuff on the table and having a rough time? Cygnar kind of has the Trollbloods problem atm. It not bad, but also not new and shiny. Trolls are pretty playable, but the Pros stick to the new and exciting stuff. That is more of a mood thing tough, less one of actusl power creep. The new zhemed miggt be exciting, is it confirmed that they wont have Cygnar Troop Options tough? I would be very surprised to see Khador Protectorate but no Cygnar on the good guys side. The thamarite half makes no sense in Cygnar though so full blending ala army of the old faith would make less sense (Cygnaran Fiona seems wrong, and Khadoran Morrowans arguably would have as much claim to the theme). And let's not forget that Blaize's Cygnaran nationalism is depicted in Wrath as unusual within the Sancteum, which is loathe to piss off its Khadoran followers. When they joined the Cygnar-Khador war they were careful to ensure their forces wouldn't actually be deployed to the Khadoran front and were sent off to defend the border with Cryx instead. Also, only the Sancteum's army joined; the Order of Illumination is politically independent enough that it did not. The Sancteum seems even less likely to subordinate its interests to Cygnar now that Julius is king and Cygnar's playing around with war crimes and torture (there are downsides to Magnus being back in the army...). I would not be surprised to see the Order of Illumination as a future release cycle, which could be an opportunity to provide Cygnar with its own more limited Morrowan infantry focused theme (maybe helping sword knights as well?) which strikes me as a better way to handle it than hybridizing the morrowan/thamarite one. Very intersting stuff! I hope PP does find a way to get this wealth of background available somewhere where again. Outside of a truckload of old book, potentially out of print ....
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Apr 13, 2019 20:53:24 GMT
They are clearly biased and want us to lose. We needed a CID, badly, nearly all of our stuff is overcosted startgin with a colossal much weaker than others at 39 points, mediocre infantry and warjacks, out dated upkeep buffs, lack of blessed/dispel and much more. Instead, we get a merc theme. Stuff like this makes me want to drop the game, Idon't have the money for a second faction. So the fact that they put merc models into a merc theme is a personal attack against you faction now?
Guys, can we slow down for a moment?
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Post by onijet01 on Apr 13, 2019 21:08:54 GMT
They are clearly biased and want us to lose. We needed a CID, badly, nearly all of our stuff is overcosted startgin with a colossal much weaker than others at 39 points, mediocre infantry and warjacks, out dated upkeep buffs, lack of blessed/dispel and much more. Instead, we get a merc theme. Stuff like this makes me want to drop the game, Idon't have the money for a second faction. So the fact that they put merc models into a merc theme is a personal attack against you faction now?
Guys, can we slow down for a moment?
Dont worry it is just the grass is greener crowd. There are some things that need fixing in the faction but yhat happens and takes tome tonget around yo. Just because cygnar does not play the same meta as other factions does not mean its bad. It just playes difrently and thats a challenge to get over
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Post by mcdermott on Apr 13, 2019 23:02:23 GMT
Its always been easier to complain about a meta shift than to adapt to it.
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Post by Aegis on Apr 14, 2019 0:02:48 GMT
Aside from silly cospiracy theories, it's true that the Morrowan theme force should be also a Cygnar theme force.
Connie was the Cygnar caster in Wrath, Gallant took a Cygnar's char jack slot in that book, and Precursor Knights were primarly a Cygnar unit (our only shield wall unit) listed in the Cygnar MK2 book. Cygnar players had morrowan models taking dust for all those years hoping for a Morrowan rework to play those models, and now that the rework arrives we aren't allowed to play it (yes, you could play it as mercs, but you would need merc jacks and another merc army for the pair, a thing many cygnar players haven't). Also, probably there are more Cygnar players with the morrowan package of miniatures around than merc players.
Also, from fluff perspective, the Morrowan church is strongly tied with Cygnar, and quite a lot of the jacks of the Sactum are modified Cygnar jacks.
I hope the decision changes in CID, since making it merc only is quite a kick in the balls for cygnar players, that aren't exactly getting much love lately.
It would be like making a Kayazi theme that isn't playable by Khadorans, or an Idrian theme not playable by Protectorate players...
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Post by Aegis on Apr 14, 2019 0:26:22 GMT
The thamarite half makes no sense in Cygnar though so full blending ala army of the old faith would make less sense (Cygnaran Fiona seems wrong, and Khadoran Morrowans arguably would have as much claim to the theme). And let's not forget that Blaize's Cygnaran nationalism is depicted in Wrath as unusual within the Sancteum, which is loathe to piss off its Khadoran followers. When they joined the Cygnar-Khador war they were careful to ensure their forces wouldn't actually be deployed to the Khadoran front and were sent off to defend the border with Cryx instead. Also, only the Sancteum's army joined; the Order of Illumination is politically independent enough that it did not. The Sancteum seems even less likely to subordinate its interests to Cygnar now that Julius is king and Cygnar's playing around with war crimes and torture (there are downsides to Magnus being back in the army...). I would not be surprised to see the Order of Illumination as a future release cycle, which could be an opportunity to provide Cygnar with its own more limited Morrowan infantry focused theme (maybe helping sword knights as well?) which strikes me as a better way to handle it than hybridizing the morrowan/thamarite one. Actually, I totally disagree... Thamarite makes a lot of sense in Cygnar. Actually, most Thamarite hidden temples are in Cygnar, and Cygnar is the most likely place for a discussion between a Thamarite and a Morrowan to be ever done. Don't be fooled by the "good guys" aura of Cygnaran warcasters. Cygnar as nation isn't "all good". Cygnar is extremely cosmopolite and liberal, and that is where most Thamarites would likely live. As proof of this fact, your statements about what wouldn't make sense in cygnar are clearly wrong, since ALL thamarite models I can think of work for Cygnar (Ragman, Savio Acosta who is also a quasi-partesan, and yes, Fiona too is clearly listed as working for Cygnar. ). Alexa also works for Cygnar and already joined them in important battles before. Actually, Cygnar is the only faction that has access to all thamarite models. On the morrowan side, while it's true that there are Morrow worshipping people in every nation, Cygnar is the only military who ever made joined battles with the Sancteum, and the Sacteum has access to many Cygnar army-exclusive jacks. There are no morrowan Juggernaughts ever seen, but there are many morrowan cygnaran jacks mentioned in the fluff (expecially Ironclads). We also already know that some Cygnaran warcasters will be included in the theme (as Stryker, the maximum leader of the Cygnaran Army), but no Khadoran warcaster were mentioned as being included. While it is true that the morrowan Sacteum is politically indipendent, his relationships with Cygnar are strong (the King of Cygnar is crowned by the leader of the Morrowan church), and it makes totally sense for the Sacteum to join forces with Cygnar to fight the Infernal invasion, actually even more than Menoth worshippers in Khador like Vlad to join forces with Protectorate, like they are doing, with a crusade between the two nations in place exactly in this right moment (and a war for Llael control between the two nations). So no, I totally disagree with you. The Twins theme force would totally make more sense as partisan (so BOTH Cygnar and Mercs) than to be Mercs exclusive.
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Post by gobber on Apr 14, 2019 4:36:54 GMT
Thamarites ain't partisans though. Stryker has promised to go to war against Cygnar if they annex llael so I don't think he qualifies as "maximum leader" whatever that means. Seems like you're willfully misreading or ignoring a lot of what I say, particularly in your assumption that I'm "being fooled" about Cygnar being good guys when I reference their recent dabbling in torture and war crimes... Your whole post seems unnecessarily combative.
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Post by Aegis on Apr 14, 2019 5:21:29 GMT
Thamarites ain't partisans though. Stryker has promised to go to war against Cygnar if they annex llael so I don't think he qualifies as "maximum leader" whatever that means. Seems like you're willfully misreading or ignoring a lot of what I say, particularly in your assumption that I'm "being fooled" about Cygnar being good guys when I reference their recent dabbling in torture and war crimes... Your whole post seems unnecessarily combative. It's not combative, I just disagree. Themarite not being partisans (While Acosta actually is the closest thing to a partesan) doesn't mean that the theme can't be. Vlad isn't Partesan of Protectorate, nor it can even play with them at all usually, but it can in the new theme. Trenchers and other Cygnar units aren't partesans for mercs, but they are included in several mercs themes. Minions aren't partesans of Skorne, but they can be friendly faction in one of the Skorne themes. Also, Stryker qualifies as "maximum leader" since his rank is "Lord General" that is the highest Cygnar military rank, so he is the maximum leader of Cygnar army, the guy at the top of the ranking ladder. Ranks aren't opinable. I don't see the highest ranking officier of Cygnar army leading a warforce like that if Cygnar army isn't involved. He will also probably not be the only Cygnar caster included in the force. The point about "not being always good guys", was about your comment of Themarites "not making any sense" in a Cygnar army, when everything I wrote and all the rules we have support the opposite (all themarites working for Cygnar and Cygnar being the faction with widest access to Thamarites). If you agree that Cygnar can accept "egoistic/immoral" things in certain occasions, why would you say that Themarites shouldn't be one of them? Again, nothing against you, I enjoy a lot fluff talks like this, I just disagree with your points.
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Post by mcdermott on Apr 15, 2019 0:00:59 GMT
Thamarites aren't even necessarily bad guys. They're just not socially acceptable
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Post by anderfreak on Apr 16, 2019 19:54:22 GMT
Thamarites ain't partisans though. Stryker has promised to go to war against Cygnar if they annex llael so I don't think he qualifies as "maximum leader" whatever that means. Seems like you're willfully misreading or ignoring a lot of what I say, particularly in your assumption that I'm "being fooled" about Cygnar being good guys when I reference their recent dabbling in torture and war crimes... Your whole post seems unnecessarily combative. Also, Stryker qualifies as "maximum leader" since his rank is "Lord General" that is the highest Cygnar military rank, so he is the maximum leader of Cygnar army, the guy at the top of the ranking ladder. Ranks aren't opinable. I don't see the highest ranking officier of Cygnar army leading a warforce like that if Cygnar army isn't involved. He will also probably not be the only Cygnar caster included in the force. Stryker is very much at odds with Cygnaran leadership right now. He is no longer Lord General, that honor belongs to Magnus. I think you'd be correct if we were talking Cygnar under Leto's leadership. Also, the whole point of the Morrowan and Thamarite religion is that the twins are two sides of a coin. Benevolence and selfishness aren't mutually exclusive, and I think once Infernals present themselves as an existential threat to both sides of their religion we'll see a lot of unlikely allies popping up. It would not shock me to see the list include lots of cygnaran options during development, but it would also not shock me to see Morrowan Khadorans as part of the theme as well. It would also not shock me if Cygnar was left out because Julius and Magnus's ambitions, and as a result the majority of the Cygnaran militaries priorities, do not line up with the Church's.
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Post by Aegis on Apr 16, 2019 21:40:58 GMT
Also, Stryker qualifies as "maximum leader" since his rank is "Lord General" that is the highest Cygnar military rank, so he is the maximum leader of Cygnar army, the guy at the top of the ranking ladder. Ranks aren't opinable. I don't see the highest ranking officier of Cygnar army leading a warforce like that if Cygnar army isn't involved. He will also probably not be the only Cygnar caster included in the force. Stryker is very much at odds with Cygnaran leadership right now. He is no longer Lord General, that honor belongs to Magnus. I think you'd be correct if we were talking Cygnar under Leto's leadership. Also, the whole point of the Morrowan and Thamarite religion is that the twins are two sides of a coin. Benevolence and selfishness aren't mutually exclusive, and I think once Infernals present themselves as an existential threat to both sides of their religion we'll see a lot of unlikely allies popping up. It would not shock me to see the list include lots of cygnaran options during development, but it would also not shock me to see Morrowan Khadorans as part of the theme as well. It would also not shock me if Cygnar was left out because Julius and Magnus's ambitions, and as a result the majority of the Cygnaran militaries priorities, do not line up with the Church's. Where did you read that Stryker is no longer Lord General? Up to the last published book he still was Lord General and Magnus was Major (that Stryker himself demoted due to the use of the chemical weapons against Khador). Did they published someting new about that, or you just remembered wrong? Stryker doesn't get along as well with Julius as it used to get along with Leto, but his Rank (barring new published material that I don't know of) didn't changed and he is still at the head of Cygnar military and totally loyal to it (a phrase said to convince Ashlyn of his good faith doesn't change that Stryker is a paragon Cygnar patriot). Julius and Magnus ambitions putting them at odds with the church is something that is also not hinted anywere. Actually, Leto is still the first minister of Cygnar and Leto is still very close to the head of the church. Also, as far as atrocities go, Khador makes atrocities an art (Doomreavers, the wipe of an entire city to kill Stryker, the same chemical weapons used by Magnus actually being deployed by Khador, Strakov trying to use a volcano to destroy a city to kill the resistance and cover his own tortures of the Crucible Guard head, ecc...). The morrowan church joining forces with Khador instead of their historical ally (Cygnar) wouldn't make a grain of sense. Both because Khador is way more ruthless than Julius will ever be, and because there is no reason to do so (even more if Khador actually joines forces with Protectorate as it seems). Honestly, all this "Morrowan Church should join Khador and not Cygnar" seem interely made up without any basis, just to try to justify a PP choice that is clearly against exstabilished fluff AND past marketing choices (shifting morrowan models from Cygnar models that work also with mercs to Merc models that also work with Cygnar) that created expectations in the customers.
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