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Post by redsololobo on Apr 7, 2019 16:23:10 GMT
Hey guys, I am a casual player. I have always enjoyed list building with Kraye and I've tried to make him a bit more competitive than the average bear. lol Last time I took him out of the corral to fight I used a Charger heavy list; however, it struggled when it came to fast melee cav and denial casters/locks taking center field. So, year later, I don't really recall how long its been. But, I took him out again. This time I used heavy Ironclad list with Blazer (murder ponies!). Again, my opponent had a semi denial lock re-stealing the initiative securing the center, but he brought heavy thick hide hitters instead of fast melee units. I was able to get the charge off killing a few of his models along with Blazer support. But on my opponents turn he killed three of my five Ironclads and all of my ponies in one turn...good game I guess.
So yeah. I have several Kraye lists. I have Ironclad spam, Charger spam, Centurion spam and they all use the Ponies. Any thoughts on how to build a better Kraye list or what I am doing wrong?
Kraye + Squire w/ Ironcald [x5]
Blazers [x5]
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Post by darkangeldentist on Apr 7, 2019 16:50:24 GMT
I wouldn't say you're doing it wrong. Yesterday I attended a team tournament where I played Kraye in all 4 of my games and lost 3 out of the 4 games. Admittedly all my losses were on clock and I was otherwise doing well on attrition and scenario so the problem definitely rests with me.
This is what I've currently been running, I love it. Doesn't hit as hard as perhaps it needs to when dealing with higher ARM but it's quite simply amazingly versatile into all kinds of match-ups. Yesterday I played it into Kallus1 (10 chosen and 20 rotwings), Borka2, Ossrum (double battle engines, artillery and hammer dwarfs) and finally Gorten (only a single battle engine).
Theme: Heavy metal
Kraye
Centurion
Hammersmith
Hammersmith
Cyclone
Cyclone
Minuteman
Minuteman
Squire (free)
Journeyman Allister Caine (free)
Ace
Arlan Strangewayes (free)
Min field mechanics
Trencher mechanics
Ace and Caine provide quite a lot of infantry control and Kraye is actually a fairly decent target for fire-for-effect thanks to his very long threat range and ability to back off afterwards. The hammersmiths can also do a bit of area control with beat-back and their chain-attack and even the cyclones can help against heavy tough targets by throwing them around. Covering fire proved amazingly useful in nearly all the games, just for the infantry control. Nobody particularly wants to risk the damage and since it's not an attack certain abilities don't trigger (like rapid healing, vengeance, battle driven, etc...) and the cyclones can be 17" away from the template and even out of sight from it! The minutemen are the stars though and get anywhere to put a couple of slug gun shots where it'll hurt and flak field to clear chaff. One invariably has counter-measures and a highlight from yesterdays event was a minuteman who spent all game stuck between a rhulic battle engine and artillery crew with counter-measures on him to stop they shooting all game.
A useful thing about this list into the kind of tough, hard to remove foes you mentioned are the hammersmiths and centurion. Smite and reposition afterwards mean you can focus on just damage up to the smite and then back off afterwards, so not following up. This should give you a lot more space. If they can be pushed, Ace might be able to help as well. The centurion putting up polarity field can stand in a zone and be a road block nearly all day long. It'd be nice to have arcane shield on it but admonition is worth putting on it sometimes just for that extra level of safety.
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Post by redsololobo on Apr 7, 2019 17:39:51 GMT
Hey buddy!
I am definitely reading everything your wrote here and trying to soak it up like a sponge. Its encouraging to hear that even though you lost three out of four, but claimed it was do you your management not the list. This gives me hope, because I know I was unable to make quick and clear choices. I really like that idea of placing Fire-For-Effect on Kraye! Hells to the yeah I can make great use of his Carbine now. I also messed up not tracking the Tremor triggers and forgetting to reposition my jacks after they charged in. Now that I am thinking about it that would work very well with Blazers Brutal Damage. I also think I messed up the the deployment and use of Blazers. So, here is what I did. I placed the Blazers on the left and the Jacks in the center. My opponent counter deployed; however, had I simply placed the Blazers behind the Jacks I could simply run to where ever I needed to. ------------------------Deployment Line ..........OOOOO.........Ironclads ..........XXCXXX.........Blazers & Kraye |
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Post by darkangeldentist on Apr 7, 2019 19:29:19 GMT
Even the game I won had only a minute and thirty-one seconds left on the clock! I am a slow player and I know it! I don't get nearly enough practice and suffer horribly from indecision. Kraye offers a lot of choice and that can be a problem for me because of timekeeping. Practice makes perfect I hope, I know that I was getting better through the day, culminating in actually winning a game before clocking myself.
Blazers are a good unit to pair with him since they do offer similar mobility, excellent ranged support and therefore make great models to help trigger beacon and flare on his feat turn. (Caine0 & Ace perform that function in my list.) Practicing how to deploy and move them up (or unpack them) will take practice and I know I still suffer from indecision and confusion with my own list. Your ironclad swarm could be very nasty with the knockdown from tremor attacks and should left them retreat safely after charging in. It's all about practice and looking at your games for what works and what needs another look at.
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Post by redsololobo on Apr 7, 2019 21:31:01 GMT
You are dead on. It’s all about getting those reps in! I’ve got a few in over long stretches, but over a few months I’m wanting to average a few more. lol I know the IC + Blazers can work. Plus, I also have some range ones. But, this is where I want to knuckle down.
Do you have any advice on what you would add to round it out to 75pts? I was thinking more Blazers but idk. lol I’m not going to play 75pts anytime soon, but I’m just curious. lol
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Post by darkangeldentist on Apr 7, 2019 22:52:08 GMT
Well if the core you're working off is 5x ironclads and max tempest blazers then I'll assume you are going to use Sons of the Tempest theme force for the list which funnels you into a few options to fill out the remaining points. Going with Sons' I would add the Black13th who offer some useful infantry clearance and with pistoleer on their gunfighter attacks they crack armour much more effectively than you might think. Then Falk for his shotgun and attack types which makes Arlan a desirable choice for all his abilities. (Granting magic weapons to a jack is a cute trick.) Squire is useful for the focus and control range buff because I still find it remarkably easy to let my jacks wander off outside of 12" from Kraye.
One thing I feel is essential for your list is some form of repair option. Whether you go with Arlan, field mechanics or trencher mechanics (or even a gobber tinker or some other merc that can repair our jacks) because ironclads are fragile for heavy warjacks. ARM 18 and 30 boxes just isn't that robust, a hand cannon damage you on average rolls. Ranged attacks will nibble away at your heavies and can cripple systems surprisingly quickly so having some way to undo this is so important. In all of my games at the team event I used repair on something and it saved me a lot of grief and caused my opponents so much frustration. Bringing systems back on line and or forcing the opponent to do that bit more damage over the game all helps keep Kraye's battlegroup functioning throughout the game.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Apr 8, 2019 10:40:09 GMT
Whenever I try to build lists with Kraye I'm always torn between bringing more shooty lights or bringing more beatstick heavies. How do people feel about Avengers? He's expensive, yes, but his melee weapon is good (and repositioning away from a heavy is even more effective when it's stationary so it can't get free strikes even with a 2" weapon) and his ranged weapon is not bad either - at least it sounds like the 10" RNG is not as big a problem when he can reposition away after shooting?
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Apr 8, 2019 12:27:41 GMT
Whenever I try to build lists with Kraye I'm always torn between bringing more shooty lights or bringing more beatstick heavies. How do people feel about Avengers? He's expensive, yes, but his melee weapon is good (and repositioning away from a heavy is even more effective when it's stationary so it can't get free strikes even with a 2" weapon) and his ranged weapon is not bad either - at least it sounds like the 10" RNG is not as big a problem when he can reposition away after shooting? Avengers had some good movies. I'm pretty hyped for Endgame personally. |
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Post by darkangeldentist on Apr 8, 2019 13:35:27 GMT
I ought to give the avenger some table time again. I did a while back, Kraye does do so much for that jack that it should have some list out there that makes it shine but my limited amount of play and personal prejudices/priorities mean that I have not put an avenger down on the table in a long time.
One key problem is that it costs the same as a centurion which brings better board presence thanks to polarity field and is quite a lot tougher to remove. That cost becomes a bigger issue once you start taking multiple heavies. In my list my heavies are focused on giving me volume of attacks and control particularly against hordes of infantry and greater numbers of heavies. Another odd thing when considering the avenger with Kraye is that the avenger's gun is rather short ranged to the point where, on feat turn, you have the same threat charging as you do shooting. It's not a big deal but it kind of irks and for a multi-purpose jack that can only do one thing at a time there ends up being no real window the gun is clearly going to be used. Which makes the cost more of an issue because for a melee beater I could get a centurion for the same points or an ironclad or hammersmith for 5pts less, enough to get a solo.
There are a number of Cygnar heavies that I kind of look at and think about but don't actually put on the table any more. defenders, reliant, ironclads (I just don't like them) and just about all the character jacks (because of theme restrictions for the most part). It's taken me a fair old while to get the cyclones on the table and feel they are worth it.
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