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Post by benjamini on Apr 1, 2019 16:30:59 GMT
Hey Guys,
I've got an upcoming Champions event, and to shake things up - I am planning to play Minions (Also, not hugely interested in buying 4 more doom reaver units just yet... but that is another story).
I've kinda got stuck on how exactly to play things. I don't actually own Arkadius, or a sufficient number of pig beasts to make the best of his toolkit, so I am probably not considering him at this stage... which leaves me with three choices - all of whom seem to want to be played in Will Work For Food.
My gut tells me a Barnabas 1/Rask Pairing is the way to go, particularly in the Champions Meta. Though the Sturm and Drang Dracodile list I've seen floating around seems really powereful, it seems to me like some variant of Rask in WWFF is a pretty good answer to a lot of the heavy infantry stuff going on in the available themes of other factions.
My main difficulty at this point is that I can't really come up with a Blindwater list that can address some of what I see as the blind spots in those lists. Namely things like Doom Reavers, Sentinels, and the like. Though I can see Rask making a decent Blindwater caster in a pinch, freeing up WWFF for Barnabas 1 or Sturm and Drang.
Anyone have any experience with Champions in this Roster? What did you do, and what do you wish you would have done differently? Is there something I am missing with my analysis?
Thank you!
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Lbofun
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 59 
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Post by Lbofun on Apr 1, 2019 21:30:53 GMT
If you have Sacral Vaults those are great into things like doom reavers, and sentinels. Plus Barnabas 1 feat helps with rat fixing.
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Post by Azahul on Apr 1, 2019 23:56:37 GMT
I've mono-listed Sturm and Drang a couple of times (don't have access to any Gator 'casters, so it was him or Arkadius). He has very few weak spots in the Champions roster. Heavy infantry lists are practically his preferred prey, and it's always fun to watch Doom Reavers and Sentinels and other Relentless Charge units grapple with the Polarity Shield + Floodwaters combo.
The theme limitation honestly feels like it hits us harder than any other faction, which is a shame. Your off-list probably wants to handle Syvestro and ideally have some good game on Spread the Net. Sturm and Drang aren't bad on Spread the Net inherently, but there are one or two match-ups which they can only play into by bricking up and occasionally you just get unlucky and have to face them on Spread the Net. Maybe too much of an edge case to worry about too strongly though.
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Post by benjamini on Apr 2, 2019 21:11:58 GMT
Azahul What would a typical Sturm and Drang list for you look like? This is what I came up with based on my own reasoning... there's probably room for improvement however! Only downside right now, is that I literally own no other pig beasts, so any changes I make can't go down that route unless I decided I want to do some shopping  . I should probably try to work a Bog Trog Mist Speaker in there though. Minion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Will Work for Food [Sturm 1 & Drang 1] Sturm & Drang [+28] - Battle Boar [7] - Razor Boar (2) [7] - War Hog [15] - Targ [0(4)] Dahlia Hallyr [17] Eilish Garrity, the Occultist [0(5)] Gatorman Witch Doctor [0(4)] Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [0(5)] Rorsh [15] Underchief Mire [4] - Dracodile [36] Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew [2]
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Post by Azahul on Apr 2, 2019 22:39:35 GMT
That's not far off my own build. I run this:
Sturm and Drang
-War Hog
-Battle Boar
-Battle Boar
-Soul Slave
Mire
-Dracodile
Dahlia
-Skarath
Brun
-Lug
Eilish
Orin
Mist Speaker
Swamp Gobber Chef
I don't think there's anything in it between Brun and Lug (with a Chef) and Rorsh and Brine (with a Bellows Crew). The Bellows Crew gives you a strong scenario game and Rorsh and Brine gives the list a serious long threat range threat. Brun and Lug are native pathfinder, while Brun is legitimately difficult to kill reducing the strain on your Shield Guards. Counter Charge gives another tricky thorn for opponents trying to engage, and native Mat 7 is pretty useful for the Circle match-up.
I do think the Soul Slave outstrips Targ for usefulness though. The rare times you need to swap to Drang are less painful when you still have one instance of Telekinesis, and the free TK and free upkeep each round is a huge efficiency boost for Sturm. The extra spray from the Dracodile is useful, but an unboosted Rat 5 spray isn't super consistent whereas the effective +3 Fury (and ability to TK things on the opposite flank to Sturm) is always a boon.
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Post by benjamini on Apr 3, 2019 12:43:18 GMT
I think I agree with your insights about Soul Slave, however I'm not entirely sure Brun and Lug work the best for me. Usually I find the mat 7 really helpful, but the counter charge doesn't seem like enough of an incentive in this case. I'm glad you find it works though!
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Post by Azahul on Apr 4, 2019 23:37:12 GMT
The counter charge isn't a huge deal by any means. They were honestly originally added to the list when I was building it to face the Gaspy3 Slayer spam match-up (Mat 7 auto-knockdowns and a Chain Attack: Grab and Smash let them reasonably knock over 2-3 slayers in a turn, which allows the Dracodile to be far more efficient into Def 13 heavies than it would be ordinarily). Obviously, even if that hadn't faded from the meta entirely on its own, that particular build isn't a concern in Champions. I've since found the pair to be useful enough into Circle thanks to native Pathfinder, Mat 7, and Brun being tough enough to tank Lord of the Feast to the face if he has to, that they've remained in the list. I do think you gain some pretty significant advantages though by swapping in Rorsh and Brine, so I by no means think you've made the wrong choice  |
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Post by benjamini on Apr 5, 2019 13:28:24 GMT
The counter charge isn't a huge deal by any means. They were honestly originally added to the list when I was building it to face the Gaspy3 Slayer spam match-up (Mat 7 auto-knockdowns and a Chain Attack: Grab and Smash let them reasonably knock over 2-3 slayers in a turn, which allows the Dracodile to be far more efficient into Def 13 heavies than it would be ordinarily). Obviously, even if that hadn't faded from the meta entirely on its own, that particular build isn't a concern in Champions. I've since found the pair to be useful enough into Circle thanks to native Pathfinder, Mat 7, and Brun being tough enough to tank Lord of the Feast to the face if he has to, that they've remained in the list. I do think you gain some pretty significant advantages though by swapping in Rorsh and Brine, so I by no means think you've made the wrong choice I haven't actually chosen yet by any means. Truth be told, as far as will work for food goes, I am still evaluating the merits of Rask vs Sturm and Drang . I do like having these kinds of conversations though, I can definitely see how those two would help with the Gaspy matchup, especially if you could then TK Lug away after he did his thing to make the Gaspy player burn through some focus getting to you. For reference, here are a couple Rask options I am looking at. Unsure if Dahlia, Wrongeye, or a 2nd Wrastler on Rask is actually the better option in the second one. I do like having mire around though here, because he can get more rages out for fury strapped Rask, and if necessary give Rask Hunter for a key shot, or throw out non-conditional pathfinder to things that don't have it (not that that is ALWAYS useful, but for situations like trampling into forests to get line of sight on stuff hiding behind it, it can be key!). Dracodile Variant: Minion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Will Work for Food [Rask 1] Rask [+27] - Blackhide Wrastler [16] - Boneswarm [7] - Swamp Horror [15] - Gatorman Soul Slave [0(5)] Bog Trog Mist Speaker [0(4)] Gatorman Witch Doctor [0(4)] Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress [0(4)] Rorsh [15] - Battle Boar [7] Underchief Mire [4] - Dracodile [36] Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew [2] Rask + Friends Lite Minion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Will Work for Food [Rask 1] Rask [+27] - Boneswarm [7] - Swamp Horror [15] - Swamp Horror [15] - Gatorman Soul Slave [0(5)] Bog Trog Mist Speaker [0(4)] Dahlia Hallyr [17] Gatorman Witch Doctor [0(4)] Kwaak Slickspine & Gub, Croak Sorcerers [4] Rorsh [15] - Battle Boar [7] Underchief Mire [4] - Blackhide Wrastler [16] Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew [2] |
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. I should probably try to work a Bog Trog Mist Speaker in there though.