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Post by jisidro on Mar 28, 2019 12:34:30 GMT
Choose 7 faction solos and add them for free. Well, that seems a touch excessive. I don't have my abacus in front of me, but I think that's about 50 free points in most of the main factions. Meant 3,3 as most benefits go. Sorry my bad!
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Post by jisidro on Mar 28, 2019 12:35:28 GMT
I'd go simple: No restrictions means no bonuses. Choose 7 faction solos and add them for free. For not being a bonus 7 free faction solos seems pretty spicy... I'd say probably add 15 points to your point total if that's really the route you prefer. That way you can spend it on jacks or units too. Meant 3. 7 would be crazy.
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Post by jisidro on Mar 28, 2019 12:39:48 GMT
No single game has ever gone Evergreen... CID is the opposite of evergreen. It's a power creep tactic that they can sustain with well timed and well chosen nerfs to reduce power creep.
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Mar 28, 2019 13:14:29 GMT
CID as a beta-testing in community is nice in teory.
My latest impression though, is that PP seems to do less internal testing before releasing models/rules in CID. No inside information, but just my impression from the CIDs. Like the first Infernal summoning versions and the Hearts of Darkness. Should never have been in CID so early.
Im sadly also unshure of the quality of the feedback, with so few weeks available and few people attending. I think it would be better for PP to do some more testing internal and then shove them into the marked. And then had a regular review 6 months after release to do corrections based on feedback from hopefully tons of tournaments and games.
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Post by NoSuchMethod on Mar 28, 2019 15:21:36 GMT
No single game has ever gone Evergreen and stayed relevant. Not Dungeons and Dragons, not Magic the Gathering, not 40k. Edition changes on these types of games are inevitable. Hoping that it won't happen is understandable, but actually expecting an evergreen edition is downright naive. Unfortunate, but definitely true. It's one thing to have a LRB and free card database; Those things are simply a necessity in this environment. The "problem" with an evergreen edition is eventually iterative testing WILL iron out all the kinks. That sounds great from the point of view of the player and the community, but for the publisher it's death. Stable games don't drive model sales, they don't generate conversation, and they don't produce significant spikes on internet radar.
That said, I don't know that PP will be *quick* to issue a new edition. Given how much damage the last one did to their marketshare and visibility, it would be understandable if they were a bit wary. But I agree it will come eventually. And, as is always the case (whether it's PP, GW, WotC or whomever), the "when" will be decided by Management and by Marketing, not by the Dev Team.
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Post by jisidro on Mar 28, 2019 15:39:04 GMT
Loved the HoD idea, it took over the conversation and had to go out of CID but I loved it even with all the incoherent paroxysms it generated.
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Post by NoSuchMethod on Mar 28, 2019 16:16:51 GMT
Loved the HoD idea, it took over the conversation and had to go out of CID but I loved it even with all the incoherent paroxysms it generated. I really loved the concept of Hearts. The actual execution was a bit of a mess, to put it mildly. Hopefully they're able to rework it in to something good for Oblivion, without losing the flavor.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Mar 28, 2019 17:15:13 GMT
As an (ex-)Pressganger I always strive for more inclusion, so I formulated this 'adjustment' at our venue to include more players in our narrative events: "IMPORTANT AMENDATORY NOTE to NARRATIVE play that I am running: Theme lists are allowed of course. To encourage those not into Themes to also play, if your opponent fields a Theme list and you do not, you are allowed: ADD any one friendly faction Character (warjack/warbeast/solo) to your army free of cost AND your warcaster/warlock gains Dodge. (Add a big stompy? Sure!) I'll call this the 'Universal Balancing Experimenter's' pseudo-theme. UBE for short. Allows for increased diversity of play with more even point-valued armies, and a survival benefit." Theory being there are many, many players out there with 'old' collections that may not desire to buy into current theme design requirements, but would like to play at a more reasonably equivalent point value. We'll see how it goes!
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Post by coolguyclay on Mar 28, 2019 19:00:29 GMT
As an (ex-)Pressganger I always strive for more inclusion, so I formulated this 'adjustment' at our venue to include more players in our narrative events: "IMPORTANT AMENDATORY NOTE to NARRATIVE play that I am running: Theme lists are allowed of course. To encourage those not into Themes to also play, if your opponent fields a Theme list and you do not, you are allowed: ADD any one friendly faction Character (warjack/warbeast/solo) to your army free of cost AND your warcaster/warlock gains Dodge. (Add a big stompy? Sure!) I'll call this the 'Universal Balancing Experimenter's' pseudo-theme. UBE for short. Allows for increased diversity of play with more even point-valued armies, and a survival benefit." Theory being there are many, many players out there with 'old' collections that may not desire to buy into current theme design requirements, but would like to play at a more reasonably equivalent point value. We'll see how it goes! This is a big idea. Do they have to list their free model on the list, or choose at each game? The idea of a character beast/jack would really swing things! Though most 75pt lists are gaining 12+ points of free models plus 2 army bonuses. Per-faction generalist themes would be really flavorful, but a sweeping concept like this could cover the bases. Character beast may be too much? Something like "two free solos" or "+10 pts" could cover. This kind of thing is super generalist (not exact OP's intent) though could work even in pairing events. Even taking one theme and one non-theme in a pairing would provide some good list chicken to someone with the same. Opponent brings two maxed out themes? Still a choice of bonus model for non-theme or your strong theme to counter.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Mar 28, 2019 19:25:24 GMT
If I had to choose a 'generic' benefit for Trollbloods it would be: Add: Free full Krielstone Bearer unit + Elder, and Runebearer to your army Add: Units and solos gain Steady while B2B with another Friendly Faction model
KSB is nearly auto-include. Steady warriors brings Trollblood play back to its 'togetherness, get hit, survive to retaliate' roots. <--Currently this is being done, better, by other factions.
Afterall, what other schtick to Trollbloods have?
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Mar 28, 2019 19:32:29 GMT
As an (ex-)Pressganger I always strive for more inclusion, so I formulated this 'adjustment' at our venue to include more players in our narrative events: "IMPORTANT AMENDATORY NOTE to NARRATIVE play that I am running: Theme lists are allowed of course. To encourage those not into Themes to also play, if your opponent fields a Theme list and you do not, you are allowed: ADD any one friendly faction Character (warjack/warbeast/solo) to your army free of cost AND your warcaster/warlock gains Dodge. (Add a big stompy? Sure!) I'll call this the 'Universal Balancing Experimenter's' pseudo-theme. UBE for short. Allows for increased diversity of play with more even point-valued armies, and a survival benefit." Theory being there are many, many players out there with 'old' collections that may not desire to buy into current theme design requirements, but would like to play at a more reasonably equivalent point value. We'll see how it goes! This is a big idea. Do they have to list their free model on the list, or choose at each game? The idea of a character beast/jack would really swing things! Though most 75pt lists are gaining 12+ points of free models plus 2 army bonuses. Per-faction generalist themes would be really flavorful, but a sweeping concept like this could cover the bases. Character beast may be too much? Something like "two free solos" or "+10 pts" could cover. This kind of thing is super generalist (not exact OP's intent) though could work even in pairing events. Even taking one theme and one non-theme in a pairing would provide some good list chicken to someone with the same. Opponent brings two maxed out themes? Still a choice of bonus model for non-theme or your strong theme to counter. I don't believe ANY single character warjack or warbeast is that big a swing, especially considering the 'swing' provided by many theme lists' assigned benefit(s) in points and ability(s). There are some significantly powerful theme benefits out there.
Character warjacks/warbeasts add a huge 'like it' value to any player who's paid for a physical model that may be significantly hindered in field-ability by the current restrictive system.
This is not a proposal for competitive play. Narrative only.
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Post by NoSuchMethod on Mar 28, 2019 20:42:44 GMT
As an (ex-)Pressganger I always strive for more inclusion, so I formulated this 'adjustment' at our venue to include more players in our narrative events: "IMPORTANT AMENDATORY NOTE to NARRATIVE play that I am running: Theme lists are allowed of course. To encourage those not into Themes to also play, if your opponent fields a Theme list and you do not, you are allowed: ADD any one friendly faction Character (warjack/warbeast/solo) to your army free of cost AND your warcaster/warlock gains Dodge. (Add a big stompy? Sure!) I'll call this the 'Universal Balancing Experimenter's' pseudo-theme. UBE for short. Allows for increased diversity of play with more even point-valued armies, and a survival benefit." Theory being there are many, many players out there with 'old' collections that may not desire to buy into current theme design requirements, but would like to play at a more reasonably equivalent point value. We'll see how it goes! Good luck! I'll be interested to hear how that works out. I'm in the same boat philosophically. Themes have their appeal, but they're also a tangible barrier to both new and returning players. This sounds a lot like the "Kitchen Sink" theme (aka Irregulars For Everybody) we'd kicked around maybe a year ago. From memory, I think we did something a little more conservative: along the lines of one free 4 pointer per 20 points of units/solos, and +1 to the roll for people who wanted to use the non-theme theme.
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Munindk
Junior Strategist
Posts: 210
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Post by Munindk on Apr 9, 2019 7:18:32 GMT
I don't believe ANY single character warjack or warbeast is that big a swing, especially considering the 'swing' provided by many theme lists' assigned benefit(s) in points and ability(s). There are some significantly powerful theme benefits out there.
Character warjacks/warbeasts add a huge 'like it' value to any player who's paid for a physical model that may be significantly hindered in field-ability by the current restrictive system.
This is not a proposal for competitive play. Narrative only.
I disagree that a single character warjack wont be a big swing. The biggest swings I can think of are Behemoth at 25pts and Deathjack at 23pts. Thats 5-10 free points more than you can get out of most themes. Most factions have an obvious and nasty pick at around 18-20pts, things like Avatar of Menoth, Imperatus, Thunderhead, Mulg and Molik Karn come to mind, and there are probably others out there. I'd say a free non character warjack or warbeast, with a maximum cost of... 15 (Maybe 18?). That'll get you a solid heavy for any list.
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Post by coolguyclay on Apr 9, 2019 17:17:21 GMT
The biggest swings I can think of are Behemoth at 25pts and Deathjack at 23pts. Thats 5-10 free points more than you can get out of most themes. Most factions have an obvious and nasty pick at around 18-20pts, things like Avatar of Menoth, Imperatus, Thunderhead, Mulg and Molik Karn come to mind, and there are probably others out there. I'd say a free non character warjack or warbeast, with a maximum cost of... 15 (Maybe 18?). That'll get you a solid heavy for any list. I like how this thread boiled down. Differences of opinion here or there, but doesn't need to be complicated. "Theme-less Armies - Add a single non-character light or heavy in your main battlegroup, if the opponent's list is a Theme list. Declare in army before presenting lists." While I think each Faction having their own Generalist Theme-less rules and models would be more flavorful, I think this would help the points swings and still allow Themes their special/powerful extra benefits - while still keeping Theme-less armies competitive and viable options. CID it, PP!
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Munindk
Junior Strategist
Posts: 210
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Post by Munindk on Apr 10, 2019 6:05:48 GMT
I like the fix, but it would be easier to just say "no themes" for a given event.
I think the game is perfectly playable without themes.
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