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Post by steeltitan on Mar 23, 2019 14:35:58 GMT
My regular opponent plays Crucible Guard and after 10 games I still haven't figured out how to solve some of the problems the army presents. I want to use this thread to, over time, figure out better ways to deal with CG, as they come up in future games. Let me start off by saying that my opponent is a better player with much more experience under his belt, so while I hope to eventually significantly increase my odds of winning, I still have a long way to go. As such, my main aim with this thread is understand which problems can indeed be solved (but I'm currently not seeing) and which problems are just generally difficult or impossible to deal with for Khador or for my list/theme. So, my go-to list is OW2 in Jaws. I was playing Robert McCormick's list but started playing with another Jaws list yesterday. Note: my opponent allows me to already include and play Sorscha0. The list I've been going up most is a Syvestro list. The first MAJOR issue when facing CG or this army in particular I want to zoom in are trancers. Jaws has a limited amount of models to apply board pressure with and contest and score zones with. Combined with fairly low mobility, the trancers are proving to be huge headache. They out-threat (11") nearly my entire army (excluding Malakov's jack and the Windowmakers). They have a naturally high DEF, are immune to blast damage and can repo because of the theme. This generally mean they can charge my battle line wherever they choose and by themselves or by pairing up slam my jacks out of the zones in turn 2, to start leading on scenario. Again, Khador jacks aren't particularly fast so getting into the zone deep enough to prevent being slammed out is hard. Even if you could, you don't want to risk a second turn feat-turn and be murdered by Halberdiers. On solution or, better said, a way to mitigate the damage is to clump up my jacks. For instance, you can position one jack right behind and in B2B with the leading jack. This prevents the actual slam movement taking place so that front jack stays where it was. However, it's kind of hard to pull off because trancers are so fast and they can generally find the best angle to slam jacks away. A huge downside of this strategy is that it leads to boosted damage for the slammed jack (trancers can boost on top of that and with Syvestro's feat, it's not uncommon for a single trancer to do double-digit damage) and both your jacks are knocked down. So yes, it mitigates board positioning issues but causes other problems. Another solution are the widowmakers, a recent addition to the list. Without aiming, however, the odds of hitting aren't great (same issue with Behemoth) and depending on terrain and who deploys first, you might not always get to shoot at them before they start doing their worst. That's it for now. I definitely have plenty more problems to solve when going up against CG but first things first. I'd love to hear your experiences playing against trancers and how you deal with them.
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Post by sand20go on Mar 23, 2019 15:34:36 GMT
I think you rightly identified that in that list the trancers are a (the?) key issue. Ditto the halbies. If you can efficiently remove them then you can force the raillesses and Vulcan up where our jacks have a reasonable chance of removing them.
1) At effective Def 15 against shooting but with an 11 inch threat range you can move your widows more than 11 and less than 14 and start to force the Trancers to go where you want them to go. Not ideal but you can then start to look at YOUR zone and where you want them. Start with that tactic to start to control them.
2) I am not sure I like Sorscha0 in your list. What is her role (other than focus efficiency?) since OW2 already has ready access to BC? That would be one place I might look, into CG of making some alterations.
3) As you have learned a KEY model to try to remove is Mosby. It is worth overcommitting.
4) Finally, if you dropping sorscha (and say went free forgeseer and a second Maurader for huge base hate you could pick up a Min unit of Kossites. They are surprisingly good against CG, drawing duty to kill the rocket breath (or Mosby)....or to counter Anatasia. I would put the Maurader in that case under Andy. Move the devestator to OW. Use it as a contester/door stop or, even better, run straight at Mosby and threaten to rain of death him and laugh at transmutation.
5) Be sure he isn't cheating. Trancers only slam larger bases 1/2 the distance. So your jacks should be going 1/2 to 3 inches. No more. You can further mitigate that with terrain, since they move only 1/2 speed through forests and such.
6) You can blind those raillesses if Alyce ins't close enough to put on Guidance. Usually she is but worth thinking about.
7) Lastly, while trancers have +2 def against shooting they do NOT have it against Magic. Now I think your Forgeseers have a lot of additional things to do BUT you can move them up and zap out a hoarfrost.
I think that is what I would try. Remove the trancers, work on killing Mosby, force the huge bases into the zones and then gang up on them.
CG _IS_ a hard match up for us because Khador hates being kitted and CG does that really well in the hands of a good pilot. But they are also a bit of a clockwork faction - start removing the DBR and Mosby and their constestors and they start to be like Menoth without the choir - overcosted for the base line stats their models bring.
Edit/PS. Relooked at his list. Not double DBRs. Even more I like the kossites. Without DBR shot the Railless losses a LOT of efficiency against our jacks even under feat and now the Vulcan has to be the one to take out stuff. You can trade efficiently there with your jack load out.
PPS. Bunching up is a BAD idea. Sure, you will be able to stop a few slams. But then you are set up for the DBR debuff AND sprays for days. On feat turn THAT WILL hurt a lot (because the sprays are multiplying the attack volume). Use terrain and the widows to deal with the Trancers/minimize their work. They still will get SOME stuff done but you have options.
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Post by Havock on Mar 23, 2019 18:02:53 GMT
Trancers are easily DEF17 or even 19. Don't count too much on hitting them with ranged attacks, additionally, they can run-lock your stuff with a 14" threat. And they are really good at run-locking.
DBR is not so relevant against your list, it literally does jack shit against jacks aside from hitting them for POW14; the debuff only concerns living and undead models.
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Post by steeltitan on Mar 24, 2019 8:09:23 GMT
I think you rightly identified that in that list the trancers are a (the?) key issue. Ditto the halbies. If you can efficiently remove them then you can force the raillesses and Vulcan up where our jacks have a reasonable chance of removing them. 1) At effective Def 15 against shooting but with an 11 inch threat range you can move your widows more than 11 and less than 14 and start to force the Trancers to go where you want them to go. Not ideal but you can then start to look at YOUR zone and where you want them. Start with that tactic to start to control them. Yep. Under good-ideal circumstances, the WMs seem a good counter to the Trancers. Seeing how both have AD, deploying the WMs centrally (unlike what I did last game), when going first, will allow me more options to dictate the Trancers' movement and I will have better odds at aiming. However, like Havoc said, it's not hard for the Trancers to have DEF 17 or 19 on those critical first two turns, with a forest or house being somewhere close to the center of the table more often than not. That becomes too high for the WMs to deal with Focus efficiency goes a long way though. Basically, S0 is there to cast one BC a turn (2), upkeep Fog of War (1) and allocate one to her Jack (for the contest/door stop tactic you mentioned as well). With no access to actual pathfinder, throwing out a few BCs a turn (between S0 and OW2) goes a long way when you have a 20" line of jacks to move forward as fast as possible. Seeing how OW typically spends 6 focus on turn 1, by casting Windstorm (in combination with Vexing Alignment) and Reconstruct, there's no room for BC. This means 1" less movement and no terrain mitigation in case there is anything close to your deployment zone. Turn 2 is generally a little less focus intense, with another Windstorm (3) and maybe a boost or focus allocation here or there. Here I typically have some focus to spare to cast BC with OW2. Turn 3 is where things get tight again (if I don't feat), because of Windstorm (3), a possible Curse of Shadows (3), allocating focus and needing to boost a possible Carrion Crows. If i do feat things get a little easier but that makes turn 4 tight. Also, with OW2 BC range of 10" (plus movement but I generally find that the space around OW2 is quite crowded with my models) can be a limitation in case you need to play a little wider. I would like to be able to say that Fog of War makes a difference, especially in protecting back line solos such as Malakov, the Adjunct, etc. but despite casting it, I've never remembered having it up when being shot again...oops. I'll try to focus more here. Last game was the first game I actively tried to get him in range. Unfortunately he was sitting on a hill for most of the game and I wasn't lucky with my drifting AOEs. Kossites?! Madness!!! Kidding aside, neither the DBR nor Anastasia (if Kossites can even hit her. Still, how nice it is that she loses ambush) are really giving me problems...at least in this match-up. I was thinking about a second Marauder but the Juggernaut on Andy is a bit more of an all-rounder and with redline kills BEs or a Vulcan (or other heavies in other match-ups) pretty well. Talking about list changes tho, I do have Alexia2 ordered and I'm thinking how I can fit her in my list. Early game Windowmaker souls and later game Trancer and Halbedier souls might help out contesting and scoring zones and flags...or kill the objective if Behemoth is too busy shooting more important targets. Thanks for bringing this up. He did indeed move them half distance. I'll have to pay closer attention to using terrain inside zones to mitigate the slams. AFAIK, OW2 blind effect only works against living and undead models so (very very) unfortunately this won't work. That wasn't really on my mind...I think I just rolled 9s to hit last time, with my Adjunct spray. Good to keep that in mind! [...] What makes you afraid of DBR or DBR+Railless? The ARM debuff doesn't work versus constructs. You're right, it's both too disruptive to my line and too damaging for my jacks. I think I will have to stop relying on that. Thanks a lot for all the feedback and thoughts! It's much appreciated.
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Post by steeltitan on Mar 24, 2019 8:10:46 GMT
Trancers are easily DEF17 or even 19. Don't count too much on hitting them with ranged attacks, additionally, they can run-lock your stuff with a 14" threat. And they are really good at run-locking. DBR is not so relevant against your list, it literally does jack shit against jacks aside from hitting them for POW14; the debuff only concerns living and undead models. Both excellent points. DBRs indeed don't scare me much. He recently switched out the second DBR for Hutchuk. How would you recommend or how are you dealing with Trancers effectively? Seeing how they typically outthreat Khador, you can't just take them on the chin every game...[/div][/quote]
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 24, 2019 9:36:22 GMT
However, like Havoc said, it's not hard for the Trancers to have DEF 17 or 19 on those critical first two turns, with a forest or house being somewhere close to the center of the table more often than not. That becomes too high for the WMs to deal with Doesn't the Adjunct help with that? If you can drop a Forgeseer for a Koldun Lord then you can use Puppet Master to help you hit, without losing access to that second Power Booster. BTW, I'm just reading this now and doesn't look like you can get two Puppet Master rerolls on the same unit? It says the spell affects the unit, so I guess no stacking, but you only get one reroll. If you need more range, how about Mad Dogs on Andy? With BC they can charge 13" for a 14" threat; and then potentially blow up to damage things even further away...
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Post by Havock on Mar 24, 2019 10:47:11 GMT
Well, Unstable is a Blast damage roll, so no bueno against Trancers.
Honestly, I think you should try to fit in a pair of Kayazy Eliminators in that list, they are excellent contesters and a lot of people have as much trouble with DEF15/17 Stealth.
If you drop the Devastator and hand over the Rager to Sorscha (she just needs to have something fill up her BG) it will also net you another solo, the Adjunct and widowmaker marksman are both good, so is Yuri (excellent flag-sitter and forest bully) since he'll be the one who is free.
It would make the list a bit more balanced and give you more means of contesting.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 24, 2019 11:42:08 GMT
For some reason I thought you were playing Wolves of Winter; ignore my suggestion of the Koldun Lord.
BTW how do you feel about Nyss Hunters with Valachev? Nyss Hunters ignore cover and concealment and have CRA; SPD 7 + 3" Zephyr at 12" range means they threat 22" with a small number of reliable shots (but holy crap is that an expensive package!). OK, you probably don't need Valachev really; they don't threat as far as Widowmakers without him, but CRA and Hunter does arguably make them more accurate.
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Post by steeltitan on Mar 25, 2019 9:38:43 GMT
Well, Unstable is a Blast damage roll, so no bueno against Trancers. Honestly, I think you should try to fit in a pair of Kayazy Eliminators in that list, they are excellent contesters and a lot of people have as much trouble with DEF15/17 Stealth. If you drop the Devastator and hand over the Rager to Sorscha (she just needs to have something fill up her BG) it will also net you another solo, the Adjunct and widowmaker marksman are both good, so is Yuri (excellent flag-sitter and forest bully) since he'll be the one who is free. It would make the list a bit more balanced and give you more means of contesting. I actually just removed both units of Elims from the list. I found that CG counters them too easily. Alyce (via Guidane/Eyeless Sight) casually removes stealth. Syvestro's feat makes hitting them un-problematic, all the sprays can catch Elims as secondary targets (if the elims are too close to your own models), Halbs have CMA and the AOEs scatters (BE and Colossal, and DBRs to an extent) can be minimized by shooting from up close... Regarding your recommendation of dropping the Devastator and moving the Rager...how will dropping a jack net MORE free points? Please note that the Adjunct is already in the list. Thank you.
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Post by steeltitan on Mar 25, 2019 9:56:16 GMT
For some reason I thought you were playing Wolves of Winter; ignore my suggestion of the Koldun Lord. BTW how do you feel about Nyss Hunters with Valachev? Nyss Hunters ignore cover and concealment and have CRA; SPD 7 + 3" Zephyr at 12" range means they threat 22" with a small number of reliable shots (but holy crap is that an expensive package!). OK, you probably don't need Valachev really; they don't threat as far as Widowmakers without him, but CRA and Hunter does arguably make them more accurate. That is some serious out of the box thinking! I will have to seriously cut into my list to fit them in. I would basically have to cut the Windowmakers and downgrade Behemoth (assuming I don't take Valachev) Dropping the Windowmakers would be ok because their role would be the same. Dropping Behemoth is more painful because it's one of the few durable far-reaching options (Mosby, objective, etc.) and I expect the Nyss to not live long. Still, we're trying to find better ways to deal with Trancers so everything has to be considered..... *Brainstorming* Against the DEF15 Trancers, you can't quite get off 3 reliable CRA shots (aiming for 6s to hit?). Cylena plus two Nyss hit on 6s, that leaves 7 Nyss and ideally you would want 4 Nyss to CRA to hit on 6s? That's a lot of points for 2 reliable and one less reliable shot. That leaves you at at least 12" of the Trancers so while not getting charged by them, it will likely leave you in range of the spray trains...
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 25, 2019 11:06:24 GMT
Cylena is RAT 7, so her and two more Nyss are RAT 10 (not aiming), which means hitting on 5s? If you want to hit on 6s that means you want RAT 9, which is 3 normal Nyss Hunters... I wonder if you're better off just going for two-man shots (which need 7s to hit): that means you get 4 shots needing 7s and 1 needing 6s.
If you bring Valachev you can stand still to aim, Zephyr forwards 3 inches, and make 4 RAT 10s (needing 5s) and a RAT 11 (needing a 4) with a 15" threat range. OR you can walk, shoot, and zephyr back to 15" from the models they were targeting (if you can arrange to Zephyr back to behind a forest then that makes them very safe, but that's of course highly situational). It might be worth the 4 point investment to get your 19 point unit to actually fulfill their function? Especially if Trancers are as big a problem as you say they are.
I dunno. Let me drop my usual disclaimer: I'm not very good at the game and I haven't been playing much lately, I'm just throwing stuff out there.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Mar 25, 2019 19:16:16 GMT
I think you rightly identified that in that list the trancers are a (the?) key issue. Ditto the halbies. If you can efficiently remove them then you can force the raillesses and Vulcan up where our jacks have a reasonable chance of removing them. 1) At effective Def 15 against shooting but with an 11 inch threat range you can move your widows more than 11 and less than 14 and start to force the Trancers to go where you want them to go. Not ideal but you can then start to look at YOUR zone and where you want them. Start with that tactic to start to control them. 2) I am not sure I like Sorscha0 in your list. What is her role (other than focus efficiency?) since OW2 already has ready access to BC? That would be one place I might look, into CG of making some alterations. 3) As you have learned a KEY model to try to remove is Mosby. It is worth overcommitting. 4) Finally, if you dropping sorscha (and say went free forgeseer and a second Maurader for huge base hate you could pick up a Min unit of Kossites. They are surprisingly good against CG, drawing duty to kill the rocket breath (or Mosby)....or to counter Anatasia. I would put the Maurader in that case under Andy. Move the devestator to OW. Use it as a contester/door stop or, even better, run straight at Mosby and threaten to rain of death him and laugh at transmutation. 5) Be sure he isn't cheating. Trancers only slam larger bases 1/2 the distance. So your jacks should be going 1/2 to 3 inches. No more. You can further mitigate that with terrain, since they move only 1/2 speed through forests and such. 6) You can blind those raillesses if Alyce ins't close enough to put on Guidance. Usually she is but worth thinking about. 7) Lastly, while trancers have +2 def against shooting they do NOT have it against Magic. Now I think your Forgeseers have a lot of additional things to do BUT you can move them up and zap out a hoarfrost. I think that is what I would try. Remove the trancers, work on killing Mosby, force the huge bases into the zones and then gang up on them. CG _IS_ a hard match up for us because Khador hates being kitted and CG does that really well in the hands of a good pilot. But they are also a bit of a clockwork faction - start removing the DBR and Mosby and their constestors and they start to be like Menoth without the choir - overcosted for the base line stats their models bring. Edit/PS. Relooked at his list. Not double DBRs. Even more I like the kossites. Without DBR shot the Railless losses a LOT of efficiency against our jacks even under feat and now the Vulcan has to be the one to take out stuff. You can trade efficiently there with your jack load out. PPS. Bunching up is a BAD idea. Sure, you will be able to stop a few slams. But then you are set up for the DBR debuff AND sprays for days. On feat turn THAT WILL hurt a lot (because the sprays are multiplying the attack volume). Use terrain and the widows to deal with the Trancers/minimize their work. They still will get SOME stuff done but you have options. DBR's debuff does not affect warjacks. The Vulcan, Gorman, and Hutchuck are the sources of Rust in that list. OW's gun does not blind construct models. The OW list has no other source of blind, so you cannot blind Railless.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Mar 25, 2019 19:21:38 GMT
For some reason I thought you were playing Wolves of Winter; ignore my suggestion of the Koldun Lord. BTW how do you feel about Nyss Hunters with Valachev? Nyss Hunters ignore cover and concealment and have CRA; SPD 7 + 3" Zephyr at 12" range means they threat 22" with a small number of reliable shots (but holy crap is that an expensive package!). OK, you probably don't need Valachev really; they don't threat as far as Widowmakers without him, but CRA and Hunter does arguably make them more accurate. That is some serious out of the box thinking! I will have to seriously cut into my list to fit them in. I would basically have to cut the Windowmakers and downgrade Behemoth (assuming I don't take Valachev) Dropping the Windowmakers would be ok because their role would be the same. Dropping Behemoth is more painful because it's one of the few durable far-reaching options (Mosby, objective, etc.) and I expect the Nyss to not live long. Still, we're trying to find better ways to deal with Trancers so everything has to be considered..... *Brainstorming* Against the DEF15 Trancers, you can't quite get off 3 reliable CRA shots (aiming for 6s to hit?). Cylena plus two Nyss hit on 6s, that leaves 7 Nyss and ideally you would want 4 Nyss to CRA to hit on 6s? That's a lot of points for 2 reliable and one less reliable shot. That leaves you at at least 12" of the Trancers so while not getting charged by them, it will likely leave you in range of the spray trains... Bringing a 19-23 point unit (which gets absolutely murdered by Railless Interceptors) in order to deal with four 3-point solos sounds like a very, very bad plan.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 25, 2019 19:55:59 GMT
Bringing a 19-23 point unit (which gets absolutely murdered by Railless Interceptors) in order to deal with four 3-point solos sounds like a very, very bad plan. I mean, on paper yes, but if the trancers are really the biggest problem he's facing (not sure that's the case but it kinda sounded like it), then it might be worth it? I dunno.
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Post by sand20go on Mar 26, 2019 3:18:08 GMT
I think you rightly identified that in that list the trancers are a (the?) key issue. Ditto the halbies. If you can efficiently remove them then you can force the raillesses and Vulcan up where our jacks have a reasonable chance of removing them. 1) At effective Def 15 against shooting but with an 11 inch threat range you can move your widows more than 11 and less than 14 and start to force the Trancers to go where you want them to go. Not ideal but you can then start to look at YOUR zone and where you want them. Start with that tactic to start to control them. 2) I am not sure I like Sorscha0 in your list. What is her role (other than focus efficiency?) since OW2 already has ready access to BC? That would be one place I might look, into CG of making some alterations. 3) As you have learned a KEY model to try to remove is Mosby. It is worth overcommitting. 4) Finally, if you dropping sorscha (and say went free forgeseer and a second Maurader for huge base hate you could pick up a Min unit of Kossites. They are surprisingly good against CG, drawing duty to kill the rocket breath (or Mosby)....or to counter Anatasia. I would put the Maurader in that case under Andy. Move the devestator to OW. Use it as a contester/door stop or, even better, run straight at Mosby and threaten to rain of death him and laugh at transmutation. 5) Be sure he isn't cheating. Trancers only slam larger bases 1/2 the distance. So your jacks should be going 1/2 to 3 inches. No more. You can further mitigate that with terrain, since they move only 1/2 speed through forests and such. 6) You can blind those raillesses if Alyce ins't close enough to put on Guidance. Usually she is but worth thinking about. 7) Lastly, while trancers have +2 def against shooting they do NOT have it against Magic. Now I think your Forgeseers have a lot of additional things to do BUT you can move them up and zap out a hoarfrost. I think that is what I would try. Remove the trancers, work on killing Mosby, force the huge bases into the zones and then gang up on them. CG _IS_ a hard match up for us because Khador hates being kitted and CG does that really well in the hands of a good pilot. But they are also a bit of a clockwork faction - start removing the DBR and Mosby and their constestors and they start to be like Menoth without the choir - overcosted for the base line stats their models bring. Edit/PS. Relooked at his list. Not double DBRs. Even more I like the kossites. Without DBR shot the Railless losses a LOT of efficiency against our jacks even under feat and now the Vulcan has to be the one to take out stuff. You can trade efficiently there with your jack load out. PPS. Bunching up is a BAD idea. Sure, you will be able to stop a few slams. But then you are set up for the DBR debuff AND sprays for days. On feat turn THAT WILL hurt a lot (because the sprays are multiplying the attack volume). Use terrain and the widows to deal with the Trancers/minimize their work. They still will get SOME stuff done but you have options. DBR's debuff does not affect warjacks. The Vulcan, Gorman, and Hutchuck are the sources of Rust in that list. OW's gun does not blind construct models. The OW list has no other source of blind, so you cannot blind Railless. Yeah - then it feels like she just gets sprayed off the table. No way to stop it and the railles under super fuel will eventually track her down, Have to deal with the Jacks but isn't clear to me that between the Halbies and Vulcan he can't achieve adequate trades to keep enough alive to get things into position. Thanks for the reminder on DBRs. feels like the tramua of watching the AC get debuffed by them hgas alerted all opinions ;-)
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