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Post by Aegis on Mar 8, 2019 0:09:42 GMT
This theme is so screwed that I don't even find the strength to fight against it...
It's totally woefully umbalanced, gives access to crazy pairs, and is totally Firetrucked up with the fluff...
I could talk for hours about all the things I hate about this theme, but in the end I will just say that if it remains like it is, allowing warcasters and character models turn infernal without reson, that could be bad enough to make me stop caring about this game...
I had a bit of hopes that with the new leadership in PP and the staff changes someone had noticed things were going in the wrong direction, but it seems that actually they just want to jump down the cliff faster.
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Post by gobber on Mar 8, 2019 4:06:30 GMT
Since all of the casters in the theme (except the old witch) get their power thanks to thamar's gift, the infernals have a debt to reclaim from all of them. They've foreshadowed this from the early days so there's definitely reason behind it, though explaining the logic along with the CID release would have helped people understand why their favorite characters can be forced to work against their prior values.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Mar 8, 2019 6:16:48 GMT
I’m glad they popstponed this nonsense to another CID. Let infernals be infernal for now.
But when we get there...
I am just not buying that Cygnar of all factions gets in bed with the infernals. Maybe a couple of casters might do this (Magnus?), but for heavens sake I’m just not seeing casters like Nemo do this, ever.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 8, 2019 7:54:41 GMT
I’m glad they popstponed this nonsense to another CID. Let infernals be infernal for now. But when we get there... I am just not buying that Cygnar of all factions gets in bed with the infernals. Maybe a couple of casters might do this (Magnus?), but for heavens sake I’m just not seeing casters like Nemo do this, ever. Exactly. I really hope when it comes back that it's just a handful of casters who fit fluff-wise. Or that they have some really well-written fluff that makes it all make sense.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Mar 8, 2019 11:32:41 GMT
As far as I know, none of the warcasters, are thamarites/infernalists in the fluff, except those that are already labelled as such plus Zerkovah. That being said they all owe Infernals a debt for their magic powers, but so does every model with magic ability and every gun mage.
So the best I can come up with is mind control as a reason why Stryker or Vlad would work with infernals.
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Post by streetpizza on Mar 8, 2019 15:33:05 GMT
Man did everybody skip the live stream? They said multiple times that its not fluff. Its a what if scenario theme. Taking it as fluff is not the intent, it was done for the rule of cool. That being said the community backlash and it blowing up in their face like was probably predictable.
Also if people are going with the "overpowered" claim on it they should probably back that up with some concrete examples of what they actually find overpowered in the theme. Simply stating that it creates unbeatable list pairs is just blowing smoke. I've been looking at Cygnar in the theme quite a bit since conflict chamber updated and the worst I've come up with is arm 27 (vs melee) howlers on stryker 1's feat turn. For other casters that's arm 22 and the wretches have counter play for arm 20. If we're going to call stuff like that OP then we better bust out the nerf bat and have a go at Maelok or armored core because its already out there.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Mar 8, 2019 15:53:57 GMT
Man did everybody skip the live stream? They said multiple times that its not fluff. Its a what if scenario theme. Taking it as fluff is not the intent, it was done for the rule of cool. That being said the community backlash and it blowing up in their face like was probably predictable. Also if people are going with the "overpowered" claim on it they should probably back that up with some concrete examples of what they actually find overpowered in the theme. Simply stating that it creates unbeatable list pairs is just blowing smoke. I've been looking at Cygnar in the theme quite a bit since conflict chamber updated and the worst I've come up with is arm 27 (vs melee) howlers on stryker 1's feat turn. For other casters that's arm 22 and the wretches have counter play for arm 20. If we're going to call stuff like that OP then we better bust out the nerf bat and have a go at Maelok or armored core because its already out there. I admit to not actually having watched the lifestream, because I had no interest in Infernals prior to finding out they had a cross faction theme.
That being said I mostly agree with you. The theme got mygears turnign with all the possibilities if opens up and that is something I eprsonally find very enjoyable and is not a bad thing for any game. Especially since CID should (theoretically) make sure it does not come out as OP.
That being said I can still see reservations in terms of balance, simply because post themepocalypse Trencher Infantry does not have to be balanced against say Storm Lancers (just as exaples) due to the nature of themes. And that makes them game as a whole easier to balance for PP.
With the new theme they will always have to consider how things will interact in Heart of Darkness, which can potentially (imperative word here) limit design space (tm).
That being said, I do agree that knee jerk reactions are never a good breeding ground to healthy discussion.
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skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206
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Post by skurkious on Mar 8, 2019 16:35:10 GMT
sorokin - The first thing I thought was mind control when I heard about this theme. A deal was signed by someone(Thamar/Morrow?) and they have to pay it whether they like it or not. - I also totally agree about the play balance. The problem is that they can pretty much run a Cygnar/Khador/CG army without any of the restrictions that we face in list building. You can't tell me that the theme benefits in Storm Division or Heavy Metal make up for those limitations in comparison. Not saying the new theme would be unbeatable but its on at an undeniable advantage from the start.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Mar 9, 2019 0:22:05 GMT
Man did everybody skip the live stream? They said multiple times that its not fluff. Its a what if scenario theme. Taking it as fluff is not the intent, it was done for the rule of cool. That being said the community backlash and it blowing up in their face like was probably predictable. Also if people are going with the "overpowered" claim on it they should probably back that up with some concrete examples of what they actually find overpowered in the theme. Simply stating that it creates unbeatable list pairs is just blowing smoke. I've been looking at Cygnar in the theme quite a bit since conflict chamber updated and the worst I've come up with is arm 27 (vs melee) howlers on stryker 1's feat turn. For other casters that's arm 22 and the wretches have counter play for arm 20. If we're going to call stuff like that OP then we better bust out the nerf bat and have a go at Maelok or armored core because its already out there. I didn’t watch the live stream. I’m all in for the rule of cool, and actually would like to see something like this happen, but it was just nuts for them to introduce it into a brand new untested faction with some pretty highly tuned solos and...oh, I don’t know...30+ casters and maybe 100 different units, solos, and what not to test? It’s just an entirely different dimension of difficulty, and saying “prove it’s broken by testing” is a bit disingenuous given the size and scope of the problem and the fact that they were essentially Crossing the Streams on this. I am glad with the approach they’re taking. Let infernals be infernals first, and make sure the models for the faction they were intended aren’t broken.
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Post by Aegis on Mar 9, 2019 0:46:37 GMT
That every mage "owes" something to infernals is incorrect.
1) The price for the Gift was clearly stated. A big portion of the total human population souls. That was the deal Thamar got. Mages don't owe anything to Infernals more than a farmer. Humanity souls were the price, not mage's souls or loyality.
2) If Infernals could really mind-control all mages in the world there won't even be a point in playing the war. Infernals would already have won instantly, and Circle, Mercenary or Menoth mages would be included. Luckly, it isn't the case.
So no, from the fluff perspective, Haley, Nemo, Stryker or the others turning infernals is an abomination.
If the intention is instead a "what if" like the video says, than it's a bad idea. "What if" are fine for "for fun" events, but if a game has a backstory it should remain pretty much coherent with that story in the base game.
Otherwhise why not just remove factions, and let anyone play anything they want and mixing as they wish?
"What if The Butcher was Cygnar? or Asphyxius remained Circle? What if the treaty for Lleael endured, and Cygnar started to recruit Winter Guards in their army? What if the Protectorate won the war, and now Stormlances were the proud escorts of the high ranking priests?"
With a "what if" ideology, than faction identity means nothing.
A "infernalist traitors" theme is absolutely fine, but shouldn't include any character model if they want it to make any sense (and even if there WAS actually a character in the lore who turned to the infernals, like it could be a Zerkova, then they should just release a new iteration of that model that is an Infernalist or an Infernal partisan like they did with other faction switches, not making previous interactions availible to infernals). Making Haley1 availible to Infernals would be like making Goreshade1 availible to be played by Retribution...
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Post by jagius021 on Mar 11, 2019 12:56:59 GMT
Everyone is screaming about the fluff, but what is the justification for when Stryker1 gets put down on the tsble against his arch nemesis... Stryker1? Or Stryker 2? Or 3? We can't just extend this same logic to the infernals?
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Post by streetpizza on Mar 11, 2019 13:03:11 GMT
Everyone is screaming about the fluff, but what is the justification for when Stryker1 gets put down on the tsble against his arch nemesis... Stryker1? Or Stryker 2? Or 3? We can't just extend this same logic to the infernals? Exactly. Fluff only matters when you're playing fluff games with friends in which case it the players who are in control of the narrative at that point anyway. Screaming about fluff in open or tournament play is just silly.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 11, 2019 13:22:21 GMT
Everyone is screaming about the fluff, but what is the justification for when Stryker1 gets put down on the tsble against his arch nemesis... Stryker1? Or Stryker 2? Or 3? We can't just extend this same logic to the infernals? As I recall the MkII and/or MkIII book mentioned something about pretenders; I think the idea is that if you need mental justification for a specific game you just say "one of the them is a fake" or something. Since it's "canon" that kind of makes it part of the fluff, right? But there's a difference between two people showing up at the game store with Stryker and playing each other (because it would be stupid not to), and between a rule that allows, say, Morrowan mercs to work for Cryx. I guess you could just say that ALL the casters working for Infernals are actually fakes, magical constructs created by the Infernals to do their bidding. And I would be cool with that if PP went ahead and made that the fluff. But if they provide rules for something that doesn't quite feel right on the face of it and don't provide an acceptable fluff reason then, well, what's the point of fluff at all? I like having some fluff, it gives the game personality, helps me to get engaged, invested. But if the fluff is significantly mismatched from the game itself, then it doesn't feel right and I lose some of that sense of engagement. Sure, not everyone is like me on that point, but I think some people are (otherwise nobody would be complaining right?), so it would make sense for PP to cater to the section of their fanbase that does care about the fluff - not at the expense of those who don't, but by making both groups happy by writing good rules and good fluff that work well together.
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skurkious
Junior Strategist
For Kith and Kriel!
Posts: 206
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Post by skurkious on Mar 11, 2019 17:56:53 GMT
2) If Infernals could really mind-control all mages in the world there won't even be a point in playing the war. Infernals would already have won instantly, and Circle, Mercenary or Menoth mages would be included. Luckly, it isn't the case. Not all "mages" use arcane magic. Menoth gives his priests magic, Toruk gives Cryx magic and Circle gets theirs from the devourer worm. I picture you playing a caster under infernals as that particular caster is being controlled, not necessarily that all casters are being controlled.
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Post by elmagnifico on Mar 11, 2019 19:44:49 GMT
Of course, by that logic, Feora should also be susceptible.
One way they could still have this sort of theme, mollify the fluff bunnies (myself included), and maybe add another balancing check beyond theme constraints, is a mandatory caster attachment "Waffletron, the Enslaver" or somesuch, who has some negative effects to the caster in question to plug up truly abusive combos, and maybe if assassinated counts as a caster assassination since the Infernals' control is broken...
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