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Post by netdragon on Apr 10, 2019 19:10:59 GMT
Been saying this for a while. The game is actually quite good these days and there are many different ways to play (even if the "average" player ignores almost all of them). Doesn't matter how good your game is if you can't get people to play it, though. PP's starter products are pretty garbage. Their marketing and community presence is near nonexistent in every LGS I go to. Without PG they have nobody selling their game for them. The core crowd will keep running their tournaments and having practice game nights, but there's not much recruiting coming from the people left there. I think most would agree here, but what needs to change to make that more viable? We know the PG program isn't coming back, and PP isn't a big enough company to send reps out everywhere, so what do you think changes to make that an actionable objective? (no sarcasm, just asking for input)
Ignoring flagrant game design decisions, for some reason PP refuses to have a proper starter box. Both WM/H and MonPoc starters do not even include the basic to play a "basic game" (AFAIK, the army boxes are not even 50 pts? much less the standard 75 pts; MonPoc starters need buying 2 other SKUs to play a basic game, 5 more to play a standard one). In a market where starters like Magic Challenger Decks, Keyforge starters, Kill Team and Guild Ball exist (I know WM/H is not the same scale as these games), its obvious why people don't feel compelled to try the game. Also the selection of miniatures in these boxes include a lot of miniatures you won't evet use against after your first 2 months of play. Limited factions are much better at this, but still are not ready to play bundles.
The action here would be to create a proper 75-pt army box. Maybe pick a winner list from a big con for each theme and create a box for it. The other option is to design a proper format for the size of the existing boxes, maybe using the MK0 casters as commanders.
Company of Iron was other missed opportunity. The starter box was a unnapealling as possible (Cygnar with stormblades? Gun Mages or even trenchers would have been much more appealing), and existing players faced the double barrier of buying new cards for units AND the deck to play. I would learn from Kill Team, release a playing deck SKU, or even giving it away free to print (or even an app!) and either revising the game to use existing CoI cards or giving them free on the Card database (aren they?).
Finally, the CID cycle is the main thing driving people away IMHO. The constant influx of changes in the form of revisions and new content feels overwhelming, at least for me. I know PP needs to sell models to survive, but the bloat is evident. Either lower the number of releases or treat each theme as a subfaction. Either way, I really miss when the all-army expansion format worked and everyone got new things regularly (MK1, early-MK2 maybe?).
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Apr 10, 2019 19:22:19 GMT
Pressgangers may be a legal problem in USA, but PP should check on the possibility to have them outside USA. Where they maybe are most needed. Like the european marked. Other companies have them outside USA, like the warcors of infinity.
As others have said PP also need to make starter sets for each factions and 2-player sets which are relevant, good looking and fairly priced. Again look at infinity. Infinity pump out startet boxes for new armies and two player sets. Not only with models but also terrain.
At last PP need a new aprouch to the flagstores. Not shure how to fix this one. Lots of store are rather pissed at PP. Maybe a bonus program or something ?
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Post by Charistoph on Apr 10, 2019 23:45:40 GMT
Ignoring flagrant game design decisions, for some reason PP refuses to have a proper starter box. Both WM/H and MonPoc starters do not even include the basic to play a "basic game" (AFAIK, the army boxes are not even 50 pts? much less the standard 75 pts; MonPoc starters need buying 2 other SKUs to play a basic game, 5 more to play a standard one). In a market where starters like Magic Challenger Decks, Keyforge starters, Kill Team and Guild Ball exist (I know WM/H is not the same scale as these games), its obvious why people don't feel compelled to try the game. Also the selection of miniatures in these boxes include a lot of miniatures you won't evet use against after your first 2 months of play. Limited factions are much better at this, but still are not ready to play bundles. Umm, WMH starter sets DO come with everything you need to play a basic game. It's actually the most basic version of the game. What it doesn't do is provide the basics for a Steamroller game. There is a vast difference between "basic" and "tournament", after all. It is attitudes such as this which equate Steamroller as the only way to play WMH which creates the very inaccessibility of which is being decried.
The action here would be to create a proper 75-pt army box. Maybe pick a winner list from a big con for each theme and create a box for it. The other option is to design a proper format for the size of the existing boxes, maybe using the MK0 casters as commanders. Let's put a pin in that for when we want to play GW. Company of Iron was other missed opportunity. The starter box was a unnapealling as possible (Cygnar with stormblades? Gun Mages or even trenchers would have been much more appealing), and existing players faced the double barrier of buying new cards for units AND the deck to play. I would learn from Kill Team, release a playing deck SKU, or even giving it away free to print (or even an app!) and either revising the game to use existing CoI cards or giving them free on the Card database (aren they?). In this much, I agree. Things like the CID box sets releasing a group would have been the perfect example of setting up a quick CoI group in a box. Also, I find that having CoI rely on some different mechanics to make it "relevant" is a turn off for me. Finally, the CID cycle is the main thing driving people away IMHO. The constant influx of changes in the form of revisions and new content feels overwhelming, at least for me. I know PP needs to sell models to survive, but the bloat is evident. Either lower the number of releases or treat each theme as a subfaction. Either way, I really miss when the all-army expansion format worked and everyone got new things regularly (MK1, early-MK2 maybe?). Actually, I have never had someone tell me that CID is driving them away. I have seen people write it here and on Dakka, but they continue to follow WMH, so I don't know how hypocritical they are being.
For those who have left WMH, they left because: * They concentrated on X-Wing which requires no modelling. * The meta turned Extremeroller such that they couldn't get any game but a Steamroller practice. * WMH doubled down on free model lists while Warhammer dropped them.
Now, I don't doubt CID has caused problems for many people, but when their models only get better (with very rare exceptions, like the Nomad), it's hard to say that this is a cause. At least PP is looking to keep balance a thing whereas Warhammer flips the table with every Codex and Battletome, and only rarely addressing any balance issue besides points.
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Apr 11, 2019 7:26:50 GMT
Ignoring flagrant game design decisions, for some reason PP refuses to have a proper starter box. Both WM/H and MonPoc starters do not even include the basic to play a "basic game" (AFAIK, the army boxes are not even 50 pts? much less the standard 75 pts; MonPoc starters need buying 2 other SKUs to play a basic game, 5 more to play a standard one). In a market where starters like Magic Challenger Decks, Keyforge starters, Kill Team and Guild Ball exist (I know WM/H is not the same scale as these games), its obvious why people don't feel compelled to try the game. Also the selection of miniatures in these boxes include a lot of miniatures you won't evet use against after your first 2 months of play. Limited factions are much better at this, but still are not ready to play bundles. Umm, WMH starter sets DO come with everything you need to play a basic game. It's actually the most basic version of the game. What it doesn't do is provide the basics for a Steamroller game. There is a vast difference between "basic" and "tournament", after all. It is attitudes such as this which equate Steamroller as the only way to play WMH which creates the very inaccessibility of which is being decried.
The action here would be to create a proper 75-pt army box. Maybe pick a winner list from a big con for each theme and create a box for it. The other option is to design a proper format for the size of the existing boxes, maybe using the MK0 casters as commanders. Let's put a pin in that for when we want to play GW. Company of Iron was other missed opportunity. The starter box was a unnapealling as possible (Cygnar with stormblades? Gun Mages or even trenchers would have been much more appealing), and existing players faced the double barrier of buying new cards for units AND the deck to play. I would learn from Kill Team, release a playing deck SKU, or even giving it away free to print (or even an app!) and either revising the game to use existing CoI cards or giving them free on the Card database (aren they?). In this much, I agree. Things like the CID box sets releasing a group would have been the perfect example of setting up a quick CoI group in a box. Also, I find that having CoI rely on some different mechanics to make it "relevant" is a turn off for me. Finally, the CID cycle is the main thing driving people away IMHO. The constant influx of changes in the form of revisions and new content feels overwhelming, at least for me. I know PP needs to sell models to survive, but the bloat is evident. Either lower the number of releases or treat each theme as a subfaction. Either way, I really miss when the all-army expansion format worked and everyone got new things regularly (MK1, early-MK2 maybe?). Actually, I have never had someone tell me that CID is driving them away. I have seen people write it here and on Dakka, but they continue to follow WMH, so I don't know how hypocritical they are being.
For those who have left WMH, they left because: * They concentrated on X-Wing which requires no modelling. * The meta turned Extremeroller such that they couldn't get any game but a Steamroller practice. * WMH doubled down on free model lists while Warhammer dropped them.
Now, I don't doubt CID has caused problems for many people, but when their models only get better (with very rare exceptions, like the Nomad), it's hard to say that this is a cause. At least PP is looking to keep balance a thing whereas Warhammer flips the table with every Codex and Battletome, and only rarely addressing any balance issue besides points.
GW is now releasing a big FAQ aimed at game balance twice a year, once after adepticon, and once in September. So far they have been on time with those commitments, though sometimes they have been a bit off on the targeted balancing part, but they are getting there and it is improving the game. I think twice a year is a reasonable amount of re-scaling and re-balancing. I'm not sure the game is really served well by doing it every month or so. In fact, to your point about the reasons people are leaving or have left, I have had people tell me that CID is certainly a contributing factor, and the public perception is bad. I have also had people tell me that they just want to play X-Wing, or <insert miniatures game here>. I have also, to your point, had people tell me that theme machine is driving people off, though that seems a bit old hat to me.
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androas
Baby's First Wargame
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Post by androas on Apr 11, 2019 7:39:22 GMT
Pressgangers may be a legal problem in USA, but PP should check on the possibility to have them outside USA. Where they maybe are most needed. Like the european marked. Other companies have them outside USA, like the warcors of infinity. As others have said PP also need to make starter sets for each factions and 2-player sets which are relevant, good looking and fairly priced. Again look at infinity. Infinity pump out startet boxes for new armies and two player sets. Not only with models but also terrain. At last PP need a new aprouch to the flagstores. Not shure how to fix this one. Lots of store are rather pissed at PP. Maybe a bonus program or something ? I am not even sure if you need press gangers in this age and time. If I think about what was the biggest point holding me back from switching systems? I mean I was considering for the better part of a year after all. It was not the problem of getting a demo it was more or less finding active people. When I did start my research, I found a lot of blogs (and I love to read up on blogs) most entirely outdated and dead. Like "last entry 2016" dead. Do the same for 40k and you get drowned in blogs. Damn there is even a guy who is selling his services like "yeah I double check your lists I write a tourney list and I give you a Skype call to talk about the lists" and he is charging quite a bit. Makes the whole thing seem more alive. And the community seems really involved. You get to "know" the players before you even play. For warmachine I found out there is a thing called journeymans league and it did sound awesome (especially the badges, I love pointless little things like those badges, and such small things can go a long long way with building a community) Then I tried to figure out what those leagues are all about and how to join one. The "latest" info I found was an rules document on PPs homepage dating back to 2018. Thats a stone age old document nowadays. It suddenly seemed like "OK journeyman leagues seem to be over" Simply changing the date on the website reading 2019 would go a long way. Makes it all seem more active and alive. Well then researching further I had no way to figure out if there are active journeymans leagues in my area or how even to start one. I mean the document explains which missions to play how to escalate the league what participants get for it. But it did not answer how to get the prices, who to contact about starting a league if there is none running how many people are even needed to start an "official" one and so forth. Then I did read up about the campaign starting in 2019 "your games decide how the Iron kingdoms will shape" (not the exact words but the meaning) Well that sounds like fun! But how it works, or if it even works for Europeans, requirements for participation and so one all where missing. Or at least hard to find. Going to stores and find most articles being 50% off did not help either creating a good vibe. Not that I mind getting 50% off hell no that's nice, but it makes it seem like the stores just wants to get rid of it and even with such an high rebate nobody wants it. So basically it boils down to: If your community and its activities are seemingly invisible or hard to find you have troubles getting new players. In my old 40k group people even start streaming games. Yes. And they promote those streams on Facebook. They get nothing from it but it carries a message which is "damn those guys seem to have fun! They even create a dedicated Facebook page and stream while they play!" and from there you get an link into competive play because they talk about tournaments during the streams and where to go next. Or have a look at minniwargaming. They invite people over to play and create videos about it. They talk in an all Profesional manner about new releases and how they might shape the meta have painting guides and sometimes contests where you can win army sets. Another community page lately had an contest where you could win a travel to wh world for the world championship everything included for up to 2.000 Euro in expenses. So what I am trying to say is basically get the community more involved. The homepage of PP could use a "get to know the players" page, where current blogs, streams and so one are linked. Those need to be up to date and regularly used. Do interviews with players new and old every once in a while, it's even fast and easy to do. Create a word document with questions and ask people to fill them in and release the answers on the homepage every two weeks a different person maybe. Have gaming clubs in the area talk about themself so people actually find where to go and have an idea of what to expect. Make it easier to create a journeymans league or at least more obvious how to do. Give people who are really active an nice bonus every now and then, be it sneak peeks for future plans, special miniatures or whatever. And if you want to get really broad customers wise, promote "beer and pretzel" groups. The largest part of an customer base is people who play for fun. The highly competitive people are something you can point to and create Fandom about. I think those steps would go a long way with little investment.
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Post by beardmonk on Apr 11, 2019 7:54:37 GMT
Just as a counterpoint. I have had a friend walk away from the game because of CiD and I have encountered others who have done the same. We play in a group of friends. Often on the clock but in a friendly casual way. He wanted to just turn up and play as mates. He reasons primarily were: - "I buy things, expecting them to do X and then after a while PP changes them to do Y. Sometimes making that purchase “useless”. I feel ripped off and lied to in respect to that purchase"
- "The game is expensive for what it actually is. Not prepared to buy things if they are going to change".
- "I learn what other armies units and models do, then it changes. So what was the point in learning it? I just want to turn up and game".
- "Unless I keep up with the changes at the same rate you (as in me) do, I am at a massive disadvantage".
- "I bought a Mk3 deck and almost instantly they were invalid. Now every month I have to keep on printing new cards. Why cant PP just give me something that works" (he doesn’t/won’t use war room)
Now I don't really accept his reasons. Many of those could be refuted. But in his mind it was CiD that made him stop playing. He wanted the game to be able to be played out the box as written with the cards he purchased at the start of Mk3. He still comes to our game nights to chat, hang out etc. He just wont put models on the table
I have met some people at the gaming club in London who used to play WM/H who have expressed similar opinions about why they left and that the fact that PP lost their trust. They feel that PP doesn't really know how to balance the game, only fight the fires closest to the them and have abdicated game development to the community, rather than doing it themselves. Some of those opinions I can sympathise with in all honesty.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Apr 11, 2019 10:22:54 GMT
Something I don't see mentioned often, but is something I've found a big deal in a gaming club, is that WMH is so much more demanding of your time / attention than other systems.
If i play KoW once a month, I can still do really well (not gonna win a tournament, but I can easily manage a win-rate over 50%, so I don't feel like a useless noob every game). Folks playing WHFB back in the day had the same thing. WH40K from what I've seen is similar, as is Malifaux, and I believe Infinity is in the same boat.
WMH on the other hand is unbelievably punishing if it is not your primary game, being played at least twice a week. A small mistake will cost you massively, and without that constant practice you not only lose, but against better players get absolutely crushed. I'm not talking about curb-stomping newbies here either - I'm talking about how taking just 5 weeks off for whatever reason will find you getting butchered against someone of your own skill level as you come back.
What this means is that WMH cannot be a secondary system, which is not a good place to be. Malifaux doesn't need to replace 40K as someone's favourite game - it can comfortably sustain itself on being a second or third system pulled out every 4-6 weeks by a player, since folks still feel they're doing OK playing it that (in)frequently. I don't know of a good way out of this for WMH, since its largely because of the plethora of special rules on every model, friend or foe, that you need to be aware of at any given time, but it's definitely something to consider as to WMH's current place in the market.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Apr 11, 2019 11:00:29 GMT
unded I see your point about having to stay on top of the game. But it must be noted that someone is always on the other end of your "over 50%" win rate and that's true for every game; some people lose more than they win and the other way around.
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Apr 11, 2019 11:31:20 GMT
Biggest input I want to throw out there is the following:
-“You can’t play 35 point games/battle box games/ etc so privateer press’s boxes are broken or don’t work”. Well as someone on these forums, who happens to play the game, if someone shows up with said 35 points, battlebox, etc, why not play them yourself using your own 35, battle box, etc army. Physically these point values ARE playable, and knowing such YOU can help. Then YOU knowing it’s an issue can always encourage your fellow players to do the same.
- “They need to bring the PG program back!” What’s to stop YOU or anyone else from simply having two battle boxes and running demos for people? What’s stopping YOU or anyone from helping or encouraging the organization of a tourney? Even if said tourney is simply “for funzy” it can still be done.
-“CID is killing the game! I just wanna use the cards as is.” Alright, this one is a little bit different... but still kinda boils down to then YOU don’t have to play the CID. You can tell your opponents that you’d rather not play CID until the rules come out officially. Most people are not A-holes and will probably understand. As for old cards, this may take you talking to an opponent before hand, but again, it’s a game and most people shouldn’t be A-holes about it.
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Post by Azuresun on Apr 11, 2019 12:52:34 GMT
WMH on the other hand is unbelievably punishing if it is not your primary game, being played at least twice a week. A small mistake will cost you massively, and without that constant practice you not only lose, but against better players get absolutely crushed. I'm not talking about curb-stomping newbies here either - I'm talking about how taking just 5 weeks off for whatever reason will find you getting butchered against someone of your own skill level as you come back. These are the reasons I've drifted away from the game. I simply can't get as many games in as I used to, the relative lack of practice means I've dropped far behind the rest of the local group--and far too often it would be a case of an auto-gg because I didn't know about a certain crazy combo, or missed that they had a way to jank out an extra inch of threat range. To some degree, WMH was always that unforgiving, but with the local meta going Full Steamroller, the other non-hardcore players fading away and premeasuring becoming a standard rule, it became much more obvious. And there's no time to adapt--though Mk2 was hideously broken in many ways, it was a mostly static kind of broken that you could learn to adapt to. But now CID is giving us a steady stream of new bonkers-overpowered lists where if you don't know exactly how it works and didn't tech specifically against it, jeej. The Infernal nonsense was the last straw. Losing is one thing if I felt like it came down to me making a mistake, or taking a gamble that didn't pay off, but often, it felt like I didn't particularly need to show up and that I'd just wasted my time. Game or group, didn't matter--the game became stressful rather than challenging.
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Post by slaughtersun on Apr 11, 2019 12:57:41 GMT
Just to add that you should NOT play with CiD rules except in specific CiD games.
Anything else is beyond the scope of CiD.
I often have the impression that people play with CiD versions of the rules as if they were the de facto finished product. It's not.
Save yourselves some headaches and bad experiences and dont use CiD rules in any other way.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Apr 11, 2019 13:00:22 GMT
These are the reasons I've drifted away from the game. I simply can't get as many games in as I used to, the relative lack of practice means I've dropped far behind the rest of the local group--and far too often it would be a case of an auto-gg because I didn't know about a certain crazy combo, or missed that they had a way to jank out an extra inch of threat range. To some degree, WMH was always that unforgiving, but with the local meta going Full Steamroller, the other non-hardcore players fading away and premeasuring becoming a standard rule, it became much more obvious. I've never understood this argument. When I ask people what their max threat range with a model is, they give me a truthful answer. If the result is unclear, they will say something like "Easily X with Y included, but I can add 3" from Road to War". It pays to know in broad strokes what the opposing army does, and the less questions you have to ask, the better it is on your time, but if you have a mental check list of things you should look out for and questions to ask, it's uncommon to get gotcha'd.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Apr 11, 2019 13:40:46 GMT
unded I see your point about having to stay on top of the game. But it must be noted that someone is always on the other end of your "over 50%" win rate and that's true for every game; some people lose more than they win and the other way around. Sure, but my point was more that I could never do that in WMH. Playing once a month I'd be lucky to get a 10% win rate, and even then probably only if a club-mate felt sorry for me. You cant learn general rules for WMH and be OK to adapt (say something generic like a pincer formation or hammer-and-anvil tactics, or using interference chaff - all general tactics that are applicable no matter the army in KoW) when you see a new unit. In WMH, you see a whole new army, and the confluence of 5 overlapping rules gives you a very unique and horrifying threat (as an example, my Una2 Devourer's Host list brings LotF, who gets corpses from the croc-pot, who gets a re-roll from the pot, who has apparition from Una, who gets Divine Inspiration from the shaman, who gets a second dice-keep-highest from hot-swapped hand-of-fate, who has +3 STR from death-powered, thresher from his weapon, dual-attack and shifter for teleporting ranged shenanigans, can charge and then shoot for further threat extension, and casually kills an ARM 18 heavy on his own) There is no way in hell you are going to be prepared for that if you're playing infrequently, and it is going to tilt you hard. Other systems do not require you to be that on top of every available rule in order to play reasonably, which is why I feel WMH is only playable if it's your primary game system.
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Post by beardmonk on Apr 11, 2019 13:49:12 GMT
unded I see your point about having to stay on top of the game. But it must be noted that someone is always on the other end of your "over 50%" win rate and that's true for every game; some people lose more than they win and the other way around. Sure, but my point was more that I could never do that in WMH. Playing once a month I'd be lucky to get a 10% win rate, and even then probably only if a club-mate felt sorry for me. You cant learn general rules for WMH and be OK to adapt (say something generic like a pincer formation or hammer-and-anvil tactics, or using interference chaff - all general tactics that are applicable no matter the army in KoW) when you see a new unit. In WMH, you see a whole new army, and the confluence of 5 overlapping rules gives you a very unique and horrifying threat (as an example, my Una2 Devourer's Host list brings LotF, who gets corpses from the croc-pot, who gets a re-roll from the pot, who has apparition from Una, who gets Divine Inspiration from the shaman, who gets a second dice-keep-highest from hot-swapped hand-of-fate, who has +3 STR from death-powered, thresher from his weapon, dual-attack and shifter for teleporting ranged shenanigans, can charge and then shoot for further threat extension, and casually kills an ARM 18 heavy on his own) There is no way in hell you are going to be prepared for that if you're playing infrequently, and it is going to tilt you hard. Other systems do not require you to be that on top of every available rule in order to play reasonably, which is why I feel WMH is only playable if it's your primary game system. This. And that is the great strength and weakness of WM/H. And the top quote answers/counters this point made by GamingDevil. Its not about being clear and honest about threat ranges etc. If you not getting 20+ reps a month or something in with 1) your 2 list pairing and 2) against other key "top of the meta" lists, when you sit down for you once or twice a month game of WM/H unless you playing somebody in the same boat, the game can almost be GG before any dice has been rolled. Add this to the fact that CiD changes things on a bi monthly basis, it pretty impossible for some people to keep up unless WM/H is your only hobby.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Apr 11, 2019 13:50:54 GMT
These are the reasons I've drifted away from the game. I simply can't get as many games in as I used to, the relative lack of practice means I've dropped far behind the rest of the local group--and far too often it would be a case of an auto-gg because I didn't know about a certain crazy combo, or missed that they had a way to jank out an extra inch of threat range. To some degree, WMH was always that unforgiving, but with the local meta going Full Steamroller, the other non-hardcore players fading away and premeasuring becoming a standard rule, it became much more obvious. I've never understood this argument. When I ask people what their max threat range with a model is, they give me a truthful answer. If the result is unclear, they will say something like "Easily X with Y included, but I can add 3" from Road to War". It pays to know in broad strokes what the opposing army does, and the less questions you have to ask, the better it is on your time, but if you have a mental check list of things you should look out for and questions to ask, it's uncommon to get gotcha'd. I think your first mistake is in thinking it's an "argument". It's not. Its an explanation of why someone felt the game was no longer fun for him. He's not trying to win a point and he's not trying to tell you why your view is wrong. Sometimes you just want to play a game. You don't want to have to be hyper-alert for every ability. You don't want to have to ask what each identical-looking sprayed-black warjack is every 2 minutes (a pet peeve of mine) - it can get exhausting. It's also not only threat ranges (although that's the most common example), but more generally something that could be highly impactful that you just didn't realise (your blightbringer just shot a no-tough AoS to catch that whole unit of Ravager, but what the hell? Since when does Caul have Shield Guard?? That sort of thing) The answer may even be as simple as "this game is not for casual play" (I hope not), but if that's the case it needs to recognised and not papered over. -und_ed
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